Dave - only one has come forward to apologize (very nice of Senna3xWC) now what about the rest who have made retaliatory/demeaning posts? (I've been the receiving end of a few myself for what that's worth.) Thanks, Carol
I wish that you would dig this deep in the sporting code to find what Mclaren has done to breach the codes. Ferrari is NOT being investigated to see what THEY have done wrong. It is Maclaren that are being brought before the FIA tomorrow to answer more than 30 questions including how they new about the flexi floor in the Ferrari. You call yourself a Tifosi but I have yet to see one post from you showing this. ps Carol you are barking up the wrong tree.
I spent the better part of the season leading up to the French GP supporting Kimi against all the folks here calling for his head. There are at least 40 posts I have made on those threads. I also made it clear (at least I believe I did) to James Woods' question in a previous thread that I am rooting for Ferrari to win both championships this year. I reiterated this in a post yesterday. If you have yet to see a post showing my support of the Ferrari team, perhaps it is because you haven't looked. Regarding your other point, my question regarding Ferrari's responsibility for Stepney is a rhetorical one. I do not believe the team can or should be held responsible for a rogue employee's actions. For that same reason, I do not believe McLaren should be responsible for Coughlan's actions IF their statement about being ignorant of his possession of the Ferrari documents is proven to be true. The entire basis of my argument has been that up to now it is a question of one person's word over another's, or in this case the McLaren organization. Coughlan claims he shared the info with others at McLaren, McLaren insists this is not true. Coughlan has not produced any evidence of his claim, McLaren on the other hand has offered up their entire documentation of the McLaren design process for this season to prove that no Ferrari intellectual property has appeared on their car. Now it can be argued that there may be other info that they have gleamed that has given them an unfair advantage but at this point, that is nothing more than mere speculation and it relies solely and completely on the word of Mike Coughlan, a man who has admittedly gone behind the team's back to offer his services to Honda and who knowingly procured information from Ferrari to which he was not entitled. His integrity is certainly in question and therefore his credibility has to be as well. When it is one man's word against another, especially with such an accusation, these facts become critical. It is not that I am for or against McLaren, it is a matter of my unwillingness to leap to conclusions based solely on the testimony of Mike Coughlan. There is an interesting article in this week's Autosport discussing McLaren's record of integrity within the F1 community and the general belief within the paddock that McLaren is not guilty. I will quote from it tomorrow as I do not have the issue with me. As a reminder:
The FIA disagrees and there rule reads: Likewise, the argument that Coughlan was acting as a rogue element will - in theory - carry no weight as the FIA rulebook makes no allowance for such mitigation. Article 3.1 of the 2007 Sporting Code specifically states: "It is the competitor's responsibility to ensure that all persons concerned by his entry observe all the requirements of the Agreement, the Code, the Technical Regulations and the Sporting Regulations". In summary, if a team member is guilty then so too is the team as a whole. From PlanetF1
THAT is the ONE I LOVE... "It is the competitor's responsibility to ensure that all persons concerned by his entry observe all the requirements of the Agreement, the Code, the Technical Regulations and the Sporting Regulations". Thanks for bringing it here.
if any post I have made has been taken as an offense by you then I DO NOT apologise you are not my mum so stop trying to act like one you side with a foul-mouthed ignorant person I promised Dave I would move on, I suggest you do the same
I understand this and I am not disputing that the regulation exists. My question is if that standard is applied to McLaren for not controlling Coughlan then would it also apply to Ferrari for not controlling Stepney? The problem is, as your quote states, the FIA makes no allowances for the actions of a rogue employee. If this regulation is read literally, then presumably it would apply to Ferrari as they failed to ensure Stepney's complaince with the regulations. However logically speaking I don't think it should apply to either team if enforcing it creates an unreasonable burden, i.e. having to monitor an employee's activities 24/7. I agree with the spirit of the regulation but it is a stretch to think it should apply in every instance. I think so long as a team takes reasonable steps to ensure compliance then this ought to be sufficient. If McLaren is proven to have had knowledge of Coughlan's possession of the documents and if it was used in any way, then McLaren should suffer the full consequences. If Coughlan acted alone and McLaren only learned about the situation when informed by Ferrari, then they ought to be held blameless. The problem with an absolute, like this regulation, is that it leaves no room for reason.
The press has reported this as the McLaren party line. I do not buy it at all. I am certain that SF has non disclosure wording in their contract with Stepnet or their personnel policy. This means that such behavior is not sanctioned by SF. Coughlan still has his job. McLaren has not said the wrongdoers will be punished by McL. They have said that no intellectual property belonging to SF is on the McLaren cars. They have not said that they did not use the information fo their advantage in any of the races. McL did not return the property to SF but Managing Director Neale advised that the data be destroyed. Not McL's property to destroy. Sounds like a coverup at the least and perhaps a huge conspiracy and then some. I believe the FIA will cut the baby in half. Neither side will be totally satisfied with the outcome. The season has been tainted. Sad but true.
Bravo!!!! Couldn't have said it better myself. I too am more concerned about the information contain within those docuements than M-M copying anything that is on the F2007. When one knows what one's adversary's battle plans are and their tendencies, this will almost certainly guarantee one's victory at any battle.
So True !! But if the subject of money comes up and there is credible evidence presented, M-McL is going to get a big black eye !!
According to them, they didn't know it was in Coughlan's possession until the search of his home. If that is true, then they would not have access to any information of Ferrari's. As far as Neale goes, the only person who said that Neale was aware of the data is Coughlan. You are accepting his affadavit as factual, McLaren says it is not. My position on the other hand is that this remains to be seen.
Who knows what they knew and when they knew it? The individuals know. However, they have a vested interest to protect them selves first and their team second. I am skeptical that we will really know the truth. Oh, what a terrible web we weave when first we practice to deceive.
McLaren prepare for FIA meeting Wednesday 25th July 2007 Fantasy F1 - Win a trip to Monaco! It's not too late, point scoring starts at the Bahrain GP. Click here. McLaren team principal Ron Dennis will give his version of events in the Formula One espionage saga that has rocked the sport. It will not be the end of the matter as a criminal investigation will remain ongoing in England and Italy, but for Dennis it will be a conclusion for now. The outcome lies in the hands of 25 members of the World Motor Sports Council, the FIA's highest power, who have been summoned to an extraordinary meeting to judge whether McLaren are guilty of 'fraudulent conduct'. A fortnight ago McLaren were formally charged by the FIA of being in breach of article 151c of the International Sporting Code. The relevant rule relates to any fraudulent conduct, or any act prejudicial to the interests of any competition, or to the interests of motor sport generally. Specifically, the FIA charge deems McLaren had unauthorised possession of documents and confidential information belonging to Ferrari, including information that could be used to design, engineer, build, check, test, develop and/or run a 2007 Ferrari Formula One car". Following a search of his home by High Court appointed officials, Mike Coughlan, McLaren's suspended chief designer, was caught in possession of a 780-page Ferrari technical dossier. It is believed Coughlan received the documents from Nigel Stepney, sacked earlier this month by Ferrari from his role as the team's head of performance development. Stepney, who is currently embroiled in a criminal investigation in Italy with regard to the alleged sabotage of Ferrari's Formula One cars ahead of the Monaco Grand Prix in May, has denied the claims. Following a High Court hearing, Coughlan - along with wife Trudy, as it emerged she visited a photocopying shop to have the dossier formatted onto computer disk - has since provided a sworn affidavit as to how he came into possession of the documents. The affidavit was provided strictly on the basis it would not be used against him in the related criminal proceedings in Italy, to avoid potential self-incrimination. McLaren, Ferrari and the FIA have all since viewed the affidavit, which is likely to lead to Dennis being asked searching questions by the WMSC at the FIA's headquarters in Paris. There have been apparent leaks of the affidavit in which it is alleged Coughlan showed the Ferrari dossier to a number of high-profile McLaren team members, including CEO Martin Whitmarsh and managing director Jonathan Neale. If the leaks have any substance, that will put McLaren's defence to the test as they are understood to be insisting Coughlan worked alone, and if he did show the documents to any McLaren personnel, he was immediately ordered to destroy them. The hearing will also focus on timing because the FIA charge states that "between March and July" McLaren had "unauthorised possession" of the documents. McLaren will contest that no-one, other than Coughlan, knew of what the team describe as "the unsolicited materials" prior to his suspension on July 3. The Woking-based marque last Friday submitted a full account of their role in the 'spy' scandal that will form the basis of their defence. Ferrari boss Jean Todt, who normally sits on the WMSC, will on this occasion be on the other side of the table to provide his own team's submission into the matter. Dennis has every confidence his team will be cleared, especially as he has long preached about honesty and integrity. Speaking at the British Grand Prix just over two weeks ago, a then emotional Dennis said: "I can comfortably say this will not end in anything that causes McLaren any embarrassment." If found guilty, the WMSC have a wide range of powers open to them that could see McLaren docked points, banned from races, or even thrown out of the competition altogether. With young British star Lewis Hamilton leading team-mate Fernando Alonso by two points in the drivers' standings, and McLaren enjoying a healthy lead over Ferrari in the constructors', those situations are currently in jeopardy. Above all, though, as FIA president Max Mosley recently commented: "The credibility of F1 and sporting fairness is at stake."
FERRARI: MCL EMPLOYEE PADDY LOWE KNEW TOO...THAT'S FOUR Ferrari: spying 'likely' benefited McLaren By Biranit Goren Thursday, July 26th 2007, 01:30 GMT Ferrari believe McLaren's advantage in the world championship this year is "likely" because their chief designer Mike Coughlan was holding confidential Ferrari documents. As McLaren prepare to appear in front of the FIA World Motor Sport Council on Thursday, Ferrari's standpoint on McLaren's involvement was made public for the first time since the affair began less than a month ago. According to British newspaper the Guardian, Ferrari state in a recent document submitted to the London High Court that the stolen documents found in Coughlan's possession were beneficial to the McLaren team in the Formula One championship. "The difference between the two teams [in the world championship standings] is so close that it is likely that McLaren's superior number of points is a consequence of its chief designer having the Ferrari documents," Ferrari's representatives write. According to Ferrari, the fact that Coughlan "was in possession of the Ferrari documents has given McLaren an unfair advantage over Ferrari" and that "Ferrari will suffer loss of at least 5.5 million euro" if they lose the constructors' championship - as well as "suffer loss in respect of damage to the Ferrari brand." According to the Guardian, Ferrari's court document also contests McLaren's claim that Coughlan was the only employee who knew about the documents. The newspaper report says Ferrari's lawyers list five different occasions on which confidential Ferrari information was made known to high ranking McLaren executives, including McLaren F1 CEO Martin Whitmarsh, and the team's engineering director Paddy Lowe. These occasions include not only ex-Ferrari engineer Nigel Stepney informing McLaren about Ferrari's floor, but also leaking to McLaren information about Ferrari's brakes and rear wing-flap separators. Ferrari are adamant the information Coughlan obtained unlawfully benefited McLaren. "The chief designer is part of the key group of three to four people who drive the technical team to improve the car," Ferrari's lawyers have told the High Court. "The opportunity for a chief designer to influence the car's performance in all areas is huge." End of Autosport Article Coughlan Neale Whitmarsh Lowe That's four. Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive.
I don't buy this. Ferrari has a reliability problem of their own and that's the main reason why they are behind in the championship.
you don't believe this do you Phil ? How could the HEAD designer make any difference to the outcome if he had Ferrari's docos ?
Maybe the reliability prob wouldnt be there if they werent having to push the cars so hard to stay in front of the Macs!!
I still dont understand how Ferrari should be punished for having a rogue employee.They haven't benefited out of this at all.If its proved that Mcl knew of the documents then they should be punished.You would punish a team for illegal actions that would benefit them,but I dont think you could punish them for same thing if there wasn't any benefit.Example when Massa got punished and black flagged along with Fisi a few races ago for breaking the rules,because it would of benefited them,but you dont punish a team if they stuff up on one of their cars like letting Lewis out on the track during qualiying with a loose wheel nut that could have resulted in physical damage to himself and others.(In giving this example,I'm not singling out Mclr,It could have been anyone else as well)
There are a bunch of journalists at the Place de la Concorde in Paris in front of the FIA headquarters in Paris. The proceedings are already underway. Ron Dennis was accompanied by 4 lawyers and Bernie Ecclestopne, Jean Todt, Marco Piccinini and Ferrari attorney Luigi Mancuso all were seen entering the building. Ron Dennis commented to the reporters: I want the truth!
