Can Mclaren do anything at all to wipe the egg from off there face?

+1. Todt really comes down hard on McLaren and the FIA in the Autosport article.

Any championships won by McLaren this year will be tarnished; love how Ferrari bashes the entire McLaren team, sponsors and all..If I'm a McLaren sponsor I'd be reviewing my future plans with them.....

 

Then given the TEAM is responsible for the action of its members, that means Ferrari is responsible for giving the documents to McLaren. You can't have your cake and eat it too!

Its like if I shot someone. If I did it because they were about to shoot me, I get off scot free. If I did it because they beat me out for a promotion, I am going to jail for murder. Same act, different punishment based on the circumstances surrounding it. Some on here want to make this a black and white issue - i.e. "McLaren broke the rules and therefore must receive punishment". What about Malaysia in 1999 when their car was measured and found to be illegal. They claimed that it was simply an error in production of the parts and gave no advantage, and the FIA agreed. Again, if you want to be a supporter of a strict and unwavering interpretation of the rules, then the Ferraris were illegal, should have been DQ's from that race an others where they were illegal. But they weren't. And I agree with the decision the FIA made - you must consider the circumstances. Coughlan had the docs, it's somewhat of a stretch to say Coughlan = McLaren, and its a stretch I do not buy.

In essense, I believe McLaren's mistake was allowing this to happen without firing Coughlan or bringing it to the FIA. And I consider that to be somewhat of a small transgression because I don't believe most companies would rat out an employee under those circumstances.

The punishment did fit the crime.

 

your beating your head against a brick wall mike.
some people simply cannot accept anything that goes against a team they support

 

Chaos and Mike,

I understand what you say, and honestly it makes perfectly logical sense. My thoughts on it however agree with pretty much everyone else. What would the FIA do to punish Ferrari? I think the loss of tech information, that arguably could cost them the season, would be a pretty big penalty. Also, in response to this they have fires the parties involved. McLaren has only suspended Coughlan. You'd have to believe that Coughlan knew that what he was doing was wrong. It's like saying, “The bank robber gave me the bag of money and told me I could have it," then going out and spending it as if it were your own. Yes, the robber (Stepney) should be punished, and his case is ongoing. But, the person who had the money knows that it's wrong. Should they just get off scot free? Coughlan knew that this was wrong. McLaren is responsible for him, as I'm sure he wasn't the only one that knew about these documents. But, I believe that Ferrari's been punished contrary to what you might believe. What could be done to further punish Ferrari? I'm just wondering what you think could be done on their end? Again, I completely agree with what your saying, but I feel that this has bruised them enough, while giving Mclaren the advantage. Take a few points away from Mclaren, level this game back out and let's get back to racing.

 

It's a matter of causation and damage - just because a McLaren employee had the documents doesn't mean that that is the reason McLaren have given Ferrari a good beating in most of the races this year. Indeed the FIA said that there wasn't enough evidence that McLaren benefitted from possession of the documents. Therefore in this instance if there is no evident causation, then neither can there be any damage flowing from such impotent causation therefore talk of penalties in terms of taking McLaren's points away is ridiculous.

 

yes i noticed that too
before the hearing it was just mclaren (todt respected those not directly
involved)
as soon as fia finished taking the littleman
(todt) for a fool it became vodafone mclaren mercedes
mr integrity rd has thankfully met his match

 

but its practically proven allready that
1-vodafone mclaren mercedes has allready gained an advantage in every single gp this year by having ferraris floor baned before they could even use it once by their tipoff from stepany
2-alot more than one vodafone mclaren mercedes team member knew of stepanys crimes

 

Practically proven means nothing - unless there is absolute factual evidence, it shouldn't be admissable.

Also saying that McLaren have an advantage because they got Ferraris floor banned seems the wrong way round to me. It's Ferrari who failed to gain an advantage through the use of a now-banned floor because Stepany tipped off McLaren. IMHO opinion if Ferrari's floor was bannable, then they shouldn't have been using it anyway - like Honda and the two fuel tanks thing (was that last year or 2005 - I forget). In real world law (and in the UK at least), you cannot sue someone for damages you sustain whilst carrying out illegal activity - surely a similar notion should prevail in F1 as well.

Even if the whole of McLaren knew of Stepany's ill-doing, again that in itself proves nothing.

I'm not meaning to be rude - we just seem to see things from different points of view.

 

so basically your head agrees with myself and mike, but your heart stands with SF.
thats fine, but you have to go with your head in these situations as thats the bit that interpretes information correctly

its a ridiculous situation, but if you punish the teams for the actions of one of their staff then that means all teams and all staff - whatever theyve done.

 

NO basically its this....You and Mike are long overdue for an engine out service!

 

Comparisons with theft and burglary are pointless in an espionage case. When an employee turns into a spy by stealing property from his employer and giving/selling it to another party he ceases to be on the employer's side. From that point he works for the enemy. So to state that Ferrari should be punished too is utterly ridiculous in an espionage case.

 

mr dude you are not being a rude dude in the least

ferrari floor would have been perfectly legal under the then rules
because it would and did pass fia tests
all ferrari did was push the limit of the rules just like vodafone mclaren mercedes and every other team ,engineer etc in f1 does for almost a century
what vodafone mclaren mercedes and stephany did was to get fia to change the way they test floors and therefore get ferrari to use their slower floor and throw all the time ,resources developing the faster one in the garbage

bottomline vodafone mclaren mercedes got ferrari to lap slower by their illegal stealing of intellecual property from ferrari high up of 14 yr .period

 

the rule basically states that all teams are responsible for the actions of its employees
if your going to put that into action then it MUST apply to all teams.
sorry but you cant have one rule for one and one for another.
tbh yes its ridiculous to make ferrari responsible for all/any of stepneys actions and i know that - but its also ridiculous to make mclaren responsible for all/any of coughlins actions either.

comparisons aside, if your going to use that rule in an espionage case, then it still has to apply to both teams.

the aforementioned rule about a team being responsible for all its staffs actions is frankly stupid -you might not like what mike and i have said but the simple fact is that if you want to enforce that rule then it has to apply to all teams and as we can see from this particular case thats simply not feasible - as such the rule needs to be dropped.

to hold either persons employer responsible really is not enforceable - UNLESS there is proof that the company was directly involed. bottom line is if coughlin is guilty of what hes been accused of then he should be kicked out of motorsport, same with stepney. IF you can prove mclaren was party to and responsible for the espionage then they too should be penalised - if you cant, then stop speculating/sulking/spreading rumours/whinging and other such pointless activities and drop the subject.

 

The floorboard issue seems to be distinct from the document possession issue. Wasn't Coughlan tipped off by the floorboard issue because Stepney/informant emailed him telling to bring it up to the FIA? I remembered reading that somewhere. That's how information usually passes within F1.

How else did people know about Renault's mass damper system? Someone talked. Hardly corporate espionage.

 

i find it quite amazing that supposedly intelligent people cannot understand that if an FIA rule regarding team staff actions is going to be implemented then it has to apply to all teams or none - it cannot be selectivley implemented.

 

i think your getting mixed up - the way i understand it this is a totally different issue to the stolen information one

 

excuse my poor choice of words

let me try it this way

as of last thurs fia said there is no proof that vodafone mclaren mercedes gained from their illegal acts with stepany so therefore no penalty

but todt and logic say vodafone mclaren mercedes gained by getting fia to ban ferraris fastest floorboard only because they were informed of the floorboard secrets and advantage illegally by their dealings with stephany



any better?

 

They didnt get the FIA to "ban" the floorboard. It was already illegal. Stepney just ratted it out.
It always bothered me as to how Mclaren knew to have the FIA focus on that.

It's like the OJ Simpson case;
How did the defense know that "the glove" was not OJ's ?
Because they knew the real glove was somewhere else.

 

ferrari floorboard was not illegal whatsoever and ferrari would probably have been using an evolution of it till the end of the year until stephany told vodafone mclaren mercedes to get fia to look and test the floorboard a different way

 

Ferrari were not levied any penalty by the FIA, neither were McLaren. You point appears to be that Ferrari got shafted in the deal, and McLaren did not. I beg to differ - McLaren has been found guilty of violating the rules. They are considered by many (especially here) to be complicit in all of this. In a business where money is king and advertising is the way to get money, that is a blow. It is especially a blow to a team that always said it set the standard for professionalism and integrity.

Furthermore, McLaren has lost their chief designer. Stepney was already ostracized at Ferrari - no big loss. In no way did McLaren come out of this without any bruises.

As for why Coughlan isnt fired yet - probably pending the outcome of further investigation. The FIA has already told them they are done in F1 for a very long time unless they (Coughlan and Stepney) can come up with some seriously amazing mitigating circumstances. What more does McLaren have to do? The FIA has laid the ultimatum down for Coughlan and Stepney. With all probability they will not be able to answer the charge, so they will be banned from F1. Coughlan being currently suspended is sort of like a dirty cop being suspended without pay pending the trial - the outcome is all but decided, but you still need to let the process finish before you drop the hammer.

 

You have been attacking the character of people who disagree with you - I think the above comment would be more applicable to the guy you see in the mirror.

My very honest .02

 

Thats a bunch of bullpuckey.

The floor of the Ferrari was illegal. If you think McLaren has the pull with the FIA to get them to change their rules, you are naieve. They questioned whether the testing method was appropriate given that it allowed an advantage to be considered legal, that was clearly intended not to be legal based on the intent of the rule. The FIA realized they had botched their testing method, then realized that Ferrari had put one past them and had been using an illegal floor.

Its gone the other way too - like Ferrari being allowed to run illegal bodywork for multiple races in 1999 and not being DQed. There is zero logic behind claiming McLaren acted unethically when they brought the floor issue to the FIA. Just like Ferrari did not act unethically when they brought the Michelin tire issue to the FIA or when they brough the flexi-wing issue to the FIA.

 

Agree completely.

Furthermore, if Stepney raised it as an issue and suggested Coughlan/McLaren raise it as an issue to the FIA, then clearly Ferrari KNEW it was illegal, and Stepney knew if they were caught, then it would most likely be banned.

The previous suggestion that the floor was legal and McLaren coerced the FIA into changing the rule and thereby making it illegal is disingenious and silly.

 

The gears in my head are turning. Hmmm, maybe Ferrari (or was it another team? I can't remember) should be banned from the sport for "finding out" about the Renault mass damper system. They knew something about another team's car - who else could they have known about it other than corporate espionage?

 

dear disingenious and silly

if Ferrari KNEW it was illegal as you clearly state above therefore stephany would have known ferraris uindertray is illegal and therefore vodafone mclaren mercedes would have known

do you really think vodafone mclaren mercedes is that disingenious and silly not to wait for a ferrari 1-2 finish to protest ferraris undertray or you must think they were just showing integrity ??????????