Alonso showing his lack of class - yet again

I think that would be Monaco '06...and Schumacher served the harshest penalty for blocking (even though he at least tried to make it look accidental). There is precedent.

Gotta go do my weekly therapy (gardening)...

 

Well, well, well... what was that about ASSumptions, again, Carol?

Maybe you ought to suggest Kizdan leave this site too?

 

What a mess..........

We'll have to see if the stewards do anything about this. Seems RD is in damage control mode not to lose P1 / P2.

 

No one would, trust us.

 

Another issue is the FIA. They set a really bad precedent when they admitted that McLaren had violated the sporting code by having Ferrari's technical documents, yet failed to penalize them.

Basically, the FIA was saying:
1) It's ok to for your employees(McLaren) to steal a competitor's technical documents as long as they don't keep the documents in the office. If you are going to get caught, get caught with the documents at home
2) It's ok to steal another competitor's proprietary and confidential documents for their own benefit, gain an advantage in the sport, as long as the team(McLaren) can fire the employee(called scrapegoat) when he gets caught and wash their hands clean
3) It's ok to cheat as long as the team(McLaren) does not get caught. If they do get caught, as long as they can coordinate their denial and publicly deny the team's involvement, FIA will let them get away with it

My point is that FIA is just about as guilty as McLaren and as guilty as Alonso(for this most recent stunt). The McLaren culture is wrong and unsportsmanlike and the FIA tolerates it. McLaren stinks and Alonso fits well in that dump. I hope Hamilton gets out of there soon, for he is the only positive sportsman they have left in that team.

Just my 2 cents.

 

In the beginning the assumptions from the regular few were that Alonso is an utter jerk and should be penalized (or perhaps burned at the stake - only that would satisfy these folks). Then when the FULL story comes out (and lets remember that some folks were chastised when they said they were waiting for the full story - and told they obviously weren't watching and obviously don't 'get' f1 like the self-proclaimed illuminati), it's discovered that it's a litlte tit-for-tat within McLaren. They tell Lewis to move, he ignores them, then Alonso is waiting in the pits, and is told to move out, and ignores that.

Sounds like 50/50 blame to me. And I wonder if perhaps Ron told Fernando to wait in the pits as a lesson to Lewis - i.e. "don't F with me, you do as I say or I take away your lap". Now Ron can (correctly) say to Lewis, "if you had listened to met, you'd have pole. You thought you knew better and you paid the price". Maybe Alonso dreamed this up on his own? But I tend to think not - it would have to be timed perfectly and I dunno if Alonso is that smart

 

Nonsense. The FIA was saying that it's NOT ok to cover for someone acting unethically.

As for #2, you presume that McLaren benefitted from it. Innocent is presumed, unless you are a Ferrari fan and it's a faster team on the other side, then guilt is presumed.

As for #3, what did McLaren do that was cheating? You mean like having illegal bodywork (a-la Ferrari in '99)? They consider the situation and act accordingly. It would have been an overreaction to ban Ferrari when they manipulated the result at Indy when Rubens took the lead. It would have been an overreaction to ban them when Ferrari sabotaged qualifying at Monaco/Rascasse. It would have been an overreaction to ban Ferrari when they were found to be running illegal bodywork for multiple races in 1999. Sure, we can petition the FIA to ban McLaren this year for "cheating", and we'll ban Ferrari those three years for cheating too, ok?

The silence is deafening!

 

I don't agree with the thought process......... The way I understand it.....

One issue is with the request for Ham to move over for FA, which is not an issue for the FIA to get involved with. The second issue is clear blocking by the FA team or FA himself..... and that is something the FIA should look into. More like 0 / 100 blame to me....

 

Alonso's comment is nonsense. In Q3, Lewis couldn't have let Alonso past, because Alonso was nowhere near him once they left pit lane.

Fred was so slow at the start of Q3 that I thought he was intentionally blocking Kimi. Lewis would have had to put it in reverse to let Alonso get past him --- heck, Kimi got around Alonso. Can anyone blame Lewis for not waiting for Zippy the Wonder Slug to catch up?

My read is that tire blanket was a genuine mess up. But prior to that, the pit crew were timing Alonso's pit exit to the second. To put him out on track relative to traffic -- or a specific traffic. Because of the tire blanket, he got out late.

But on the second stop, the crew was also carefully timing Alonso's release. And Alonso was on track slowly waggling around to "heat his tires" (in those conditions???) when Kimi was trying for a hot lap.

I think *THAT* was the point -- to get in the way of Kimi's hot laps.

But Alonso sat after the team released him. That botched Hamilton's run -- and meant that Kimi caught him on a different part of the track than if he'd left when released. (Maybe a wider part?)

So just which episode of blocking was Ron mad about?

Once a team starts cheating, just where do you stop?

 

I don't know if anyone wants it but I have the press conference that i downloaded on my computer. I don't know how to host it but if someone else can I can send it to you over aim or something and maybe you can post it up here so other f-chatters can see lewis' reaction to what happened. i'm impressed with how well he handled the whole thing. I watched the incident on youtube and if i were him I would be furious.

 

Precisely the issue. There is no provision in the rules that forces one car to move over for another during fuel burn-off laps. That is internal. There is definitely a provision that affects blocking a car's ability to complete a qualifying lap. This was the Monaco/Rascasse issue that SRT Mike is referring to, where Schumacher had his quali times wiped out and was sent to the back of the field.

 

#3 is the universal unwritten rule of sport (if you're not cheating, you're not trying hard enough; it's only cheating if you get caught).

That said, I think McLaren's guilt depends on if Flavio's suggestion that they skimmed the Ferrari data to understand weight distribution set up on the Bridgestones is true, giving them a competitive advantage over the other former Michelin teams. We don't really know, but there appears to be more here than the public is exposed to.

 

I agree that, based on the facts that have been reported, the FIA should have imposed some sort of penalty on McLaren but don't tar and feather the whole organization as a result of the actions of a few (even if they were in management positions). There are many gentlemen and sportsmen at McLaren, including one Louis Hamilton.

 

Two wrongs does not make a right. So much for team unity, Go McLaren-Mercedes!!!

Can you please remind me what illegal bodywork are you referring to in 1999? I seriously do not remember, TIA.

 

Well the plot seems to be thickening. The word is now that Hamilton refused to obey team orders to allow Alonso past in Q3 and thus caused Alonso to forfeit a fuel burn lap and that's what caused the mess.

 

it says to me they had to reduce his fuel becuase the normal burnoff had been blocked by hamilton, you read it again, RD is pissed at hamilton. but your bias may be hard to overcome

 

Isnt it blocking and blocking though? Just one was on track and the other was in the pits?

Personally I tend to think that stuff that the teams do in quali in the pits should stay within the team. If they do it on track, then it's fair game for penalties. The pits are the teams area and its their decision how they run things in the pits during quali. My .02 anyway, and I say that as somoen that does NOT like Alonso

 

I think it would probably be more correct to say if youre not bending the rules, you're not trying hard enough. I tend to think there is enough $$ on the line these days that the teams dont want to risk being caught blatantly cheating - it would make the sponsors look very bad. But they certainly take every advantage that comes their way. Many times all the teams have been in agreement with something but Ferrari have abstained from supporting the issue that was at hand, thereby killing it because it was not unanimous. Then Todt would say it's "not his place" to make that decision and it was the FIA who killed it.

I dont blame Ferrari at all for using all measures at their disposal, nor do I blame McLaren. IF it can be shown that they used it, then they ought to be banned but I dont think that can be shown. That they are faster this year isnt telling at all, they have always been fast and if anything they are coming back to where they usually are. Its their slowness that was out of the norm, not their quickness.

I do agree 100% that there is probably way more than most of us know going on in the background.

 

At the end of the 99 season, both Ferraris were disqualified for having bodywork that was illegal. It was 5mm too high or something like that. They were DQed and the points nullified (I believe this took away their WDC/WCC win). They appealed and said the bodywork gave no advantage, and it was a manufacturing flaw that had made it the wrong size they also noted that this bodywork had been on the car for many races and if they were going to rule it illegal, it would be taking away most of their seasons points. The FIA agreed that the bodywork gave no advantage, and while it was technically illegal and made their car illegal, they gained no advantage and therefore their points/wins were reinstated.

So, by the letter of the law, their cars were not compliant. If one wanted to be a hardass, they could say the Ferraris should have been DQed. I think what the FIA did was correct, in that they realized that it was illegal but wasnt malicious and so they let it slide.

I believe the same applies to McLaren. I dont think the team used the data at all, and I think the most they did was cover for a stupid employee who they either didnt want to see get in trouble, or hoped to retain in their employ rather than outing him to the FIA leading to a ban. If they were going to use the tire data, or the strategy data, they would just use it all, wouldn't they? I dont think they used it. If it can be proven they did, DQ them. But absent that data, I consider it very much the same as the 99 Ferrari bodywork.

 

+1

I think Ron is pissed that Hamilton farqed his own qualifying, not that Alonso did it. I think he's upset because if Lewis had listened to him, it wouldnt have happened - but now there is yet another 'scandal' buzzing around McLaren that Ron Dennis really didnt need right now

 

Oh, do please forgive me for not jumping on the Alonso-bashing bandwagon.

Where have I been the last 2 years? I have been coming to my own conclusions about drivers, and not jumping on bandwagons, like yourself. I love how you call Alonso an a__hole, as if that were a fact. You know what? You are entitled to your own opinion, and I can respect that, I am not going to belittle you over your opinion, like you are trying to do to me in your post.

I believe it was in the movie "Men in Black", where Tommy Lee tells Will Smith that "......a person is smart, people are stupid", or something along those lines. I couldn't agree more. It was the same with Montoya, and now you bandwagoners need another villain, so good 'ol Alonso gets the call. Ron dennis comes right out and says it was LH's fault, and you people STILL find a reason to put down Alonso. Unbelievable.

When you get to the point where you can perhaps form your own opinion about issues in F1, and discuss your opinions with some level of intelligence, please, look me up.

Carol, I am serving some humble pie over here..............DUH! Would you like a piece?

 

AMEN, Tony. This is exactly what I've been thinking. It would only be justice, eh?

 

+1!

At least it might be from above instead of machinated retribution by a slighted Fred... <grin>

 

ALONSO CLEARED

http://www.sportinglife.com/formula1/news/story_get.cgi?STORY_NAME=formula1/07/08/04/AUTO_Hungarian_2nd_Nightlead.html

http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?PO_ID=40283

 

Yes, I hope so.

If Shumi did that stunt he would have been penalized-wait-he allegedly did and he certainly was......

F1/FIA are really starting to **** the bed IMHO....First the lack of real racing/passing and now the credibility issue....

I hope KR wins but wouldn't mind seeing a Heidfield victory.....