The 355-Exposed? Covered Up? or Overlooked ????

Actually Vern that is one of the key points that has complicated the entire process regarding the exhaust design.

People read so many posts about HyperFlow cats being installed and how they created CEL's. Hog wash! Two of those cars were found to have the valve wired open and 1 had all the vac. lines swapped around pertaining to the bypass system. These 3 were just the ones I was involved in janitorial duties.

The 355 exhaust system is the most misunderstood system of all time. Your description is spot on and is a major factor in the new design.


Dave

 

Hi Vern,
Great info!!!!!

YES YES YES. Your data confirms mine. Vern, as you know from many past threads I have publicly stated my dislike of the 355 by-pass exhaust system. Even on this thread(Post #142,Item4) I made reference to this issue/concern,i.e. ambient air being drawn back into the lower exhaust system(where O2 sensors are) when the by-pass valve opens. What the actual cause/causes which are producing this,IMO are:

1. The exhaust reversion wave

2. The angles of the Y at the end of the header which split the exhaust stream to upper(secondary,i.e. by-pass), and lower(primary) exhaust systems. As the exhaust stream goes up to the secondary system(less restrictive) when the by-pass is open, this high velocity stream moving past the primary opening(restrictive) in the Y sets up a resonance wave which produces a low pressure area(less than ambient air pressure). This produces a vacuum in the primary system thereby pulling ambient air from the outside into and thru the cats/O2 sensors, i.e. the exhaust reverses. This phenomena(resonance wave production in the Y opening at the header) is in effect the same thing I was talking about on the Ferrari F1 cars sticking the exhaust secondary pipe up into the aerodynamic flow,e.g. the air moving over the opening in the flute.

Again, these are my opinions as to the cause or causes(1 or 2, or both 1 & 2). If someone has other ideas concerning this, I'm all ears.

Even though the 2.7 and 5.2 by-pass serves the same function, they are "in-fact" designed a little differently. How much, or to what degree these changes alter the magnitude of this issue, I am not aware of. The main point to consider is that both of these versions are producing this problem. If this problem is occuring on Vern's CH, I believe it is much much more of a concern that needs addressing on the street cars.

Alertering/modifying only a part of the existing exhaust system....????? I will not discuss this. After consulting with Dave, Vern, Kevin, and others, this concern will be addressed. I believe Dave has already come up with the solution, and will let him present this modification, at the appropriate time.

Again, many thanks to Vern for his participation in trying to resolve these issues.

 

Hi Dave,

+++Right on!!!

Again, I want to say "thank you" for all the support and help concerning the issues discussed in this thread. I know you are always pressed for quality time to devote to this thread, but without your expertise and knowledege all of this would have never gotten off the ground. Your commitment to the marque says it all.

As always, I look forward to your ability in coming up with viable,cost effective solutions that will enhance 355 ownership.

When this thread is done, I believe it will be an asset to both current and future owners of the 355 model, and will in fact be a plus as to why you should have this thoroughbred in your stable. It will definitely be worth the price of admission.....

 

I am very thankful to bruce, dave, vern, ND and others for their time to post their ponderings, findings and experience on this and other threads. As is widely known, the 355 is not without its issues. I personally would like to see the 355 be the best car it can be. So as we know any effect its not without its cause. So I applaud the genuine pursuit to discuss, research and examine with the intent to ultimately solve these issues.

 

You are welcome to the comment on my participation and I agree on your thoughts on #2 (no pun intended) I have thought that this was happening this way too(didn't know what to call it But anyway same thoughts) Sort of what drag racers do with crank case venting, using the header system to suck the blow by gases into the exhaust stream.

 

To add to the above post(had to go mow the grass before it got dark) Maybe the reversion caused by the 5 valve design is part of the reason we have this interesting exhaust configuration. The exhaust might have been the result of the need by the engineers to get the most out of the this engine design(that is, IMO, a lot of power out of such a small engine for '95 standards) I still think the intake system, the 5 valve head and the exhaust are all there for a reason (other than marketing in '95). It might be that if you get the factory cats out of the picture and have better quality material for the headers that maybe the problems go away ie; an engine digesting its cats and exhaust can't be good for the liners and valve guides hahaha.

 

I looked for a long time to find the source of the abrasive that was working on the liners. I was stuck on the theory of cylinder washout from unburnt fuel for a long time. Funny the things one finds in oil samples when one opens their eyes wide enough to find it.

I am not yet convinced that I can stop looking at the liners themselves at this time. Everyone knows about the problems encountered by other manufactures with a varity of the Nickle-Carbide coatings. We are seeing a problem but not with a regular wear pattern as would be expected with a chemical reaction. If that were the case we would see simular failures from the 348 and 360 which I have not. This strongly suggests that there design issue(s) unique to the 355 that are influencing much of the wear. To pin point all of the issues at hand one has to also study at great length the 348 and the 360 as Bruce eluded to far earlier in this thread. I started redesigning the liner spec's as at the time I was convinced this had to be done. I no longer see that as a front line issue and am focused on other areas.
In an attempt to contain the many directions I have headed in this quest I decided to step back and analize each component regarding its merits and its weakneses. When done with that I can then study how well they play together. Elimination of many causes has been done by studing the other models track records. The flow chart is now 4 pages long and growing. Twisted as this is, I now look forward to proving my own thoughts wrong.
When all is said and done, what is a real expectation in terms of life span of the 355 engine before it needs freshening? This is one of the factors when looking at the durabilty of the components. Anyone have thoughts on this? Owners of the model can best answer that question and then we can see if that is a realistic expectation. This question is at the end of many arrows on the flow chart.


Dave

 

I am not sure if you guys already dicussed what I am about to post. If you guys already have, then please disregard.

This is what I gather so far from your supositions:

The reversion waves which I believe are worse at idle and during shifting when the throttle closes are bringing particulates from the erroding headers and maybe even ceramic particles from failing stock cats. These particles are being introduced as an abrasive and causing premature cyinder wear. This introduction of "abrasives" gets drawn in by the reversion wave and the vacuum in the intake manifold at idle and shifting during valve overlap. This type of excessive wear is not seen in the 360 which has a very similar engine as the 355.

Ok now here is a possible reason the 360 does not show these characteristics. The 360 has variable exhaust cam timing. So during idle/low RPM and shifting the cam is retarded, diminishing the valve overlap and the intake vacuum/reversion effect outlined in the previous paragraph. Where as the 355 has the "advance"/overlap cam setting at all times which is the optimal setting for higher RPM power but not so good at lower RPM torque.

 

I agree. It's a unique 355 design issue or temperature/pressure issue or cam timing issue. The models that flank the 355 (e.g. 348 and 360) aren't seeing the valve guide issue.

I'd like to know if most/all free-flow 355 Challenge cars (e.g. test pipes and no muffler) see any valve guide problems. I'd guess not, but guesses aren't going to do us much good.

I'd like to know if the valve guide problem occurs more frequently on 355's that have had or still have exhaust header leaks.

 

Since we are touching a little bit on headers I want to make a couple of DEFINITIVE statements:

1. Cracked headers DO NOT CAUSE BURNT VALVES.....PERIOD. This is an old myth that appears to be alive in the minds of those who DO NOT have a clue as to what really causes the valve to burn(heat stress/fracture).

2. Wrapping headers with "heat resistance fabric" is the BIGGEST PILE OF CRAP I've ever heard of....ESPECIALLY on a street car. This is 2007 AD not BC!!!!!!!!!! If you are going to wrap your stainless steel headers you might as well find an 18" diameter pine log and make yourself 4 racing wheels...be sure to shod it with some solid rubber and use cast iron nails to attach it to the hub, so the wheels won't come off during hard cornering...
IF, you are trying to set a world speed record at Bonneville using light gauge mild steel exhuast components, then what I just said does not apply to you.


As for "dicking" with various exhaust components to maximize performance and reliability????.....hope you know what you are doin there "speed racer".

I WILL NOT discuss this any further....you can do whatever you want with what ever you have, since I'm not the one who will be footing the bill for your mistakes.

 

Bruce, please correct me if I am wrong but I thought the reason for wrapping non-shielded headers was to protect under hood components from excess heat failure. Probably could be accomplished more efficiently using fabricated aluminum or stainless shielding.
Regarding pine for the wheels. IMHO red oak would be a more durable material! Has a higher speed rating also!
Please continue this quest to improve and correct the 355 known issues. I am currently looking to buy a 355 in the near future and find all the research and information extremely interesting.

 

Hi John,

Red Oak is for street use.....Southern Pine is clearly marked "Not For Street Use". Pine is not as durable, but is extremely lightweight and has been the choice of racers since King Tut.......also remember, if we run these on the street we are breaking the LAW and in the case of an accident due to wheel failure the Insurance company will deny your claim......lol

Here are the important facts:

1. We want to keep the exhaust gas stream as hot as we can

2. We want the headers to breath...i.e. radiat heat so they do not become "heat loaded"....hence long life

3. Absolute lowest operational temps in the engine bay(under hood)

The ONLY way, to date, that I know of achieving this is without going super exotic(cost prohibitive for most owners):

Construct headers from 304 or 321(more expensive) ss. Long raduis bends on primaries with minimal welding(slip joint where possible)

Correct coating to the inside of system

Space age molded insulation barrier on the exterior(flow thru design)....removable type is HIGHLY preferred. This allows you to show off the ss exterior and permits easy visual inspection of welds,tubes,etc.

NOTE: 304 is much better than 409.....but 304 also has its' limits also.

Vern has modified his OEM Challenge exhuast and had a coating applied and his reports indicate it's working OK. Just remember that he has a much less restrictive exhaust on his RACE CAR.


Hope this helps you out. Look forward to seeing you in a 355.....it is definitely worth the price of admission...

 

I NEEDED a Friday pick-me-up. The debate about Pine VS Red Oak had my head laying on my desk at lunch.
ABSOLUTE CLASSIC!!!!!

Thank You, I needed that

Dave

 

Everyone needs a 'mini' vacation once in a while....... !!!

 

Bruce,

I figured the other threads are what you were referring to regarding wrap. At first I suspected the need for decaf with the debate on the appropriate wood required for Off Road wheels but then with the King Tut time line reference I knew everything was good.
I had a customer walk in the door just after I read those threads. Embarrassing moment when I am caught with my forehead resting on a stack of paperwork on my desk. Took a moment to regain my composure before I read it to him and we both shared a good laugh.

For reference reasons I will post some photos of a AH Sprite race car header we built a couple of seasons ago. Not your average street car as this is a 1 ltr, 10.5K RPM, 139 HP cast iron, 3 main bearing Grenade but I keep the exhaust temps to 1550 deg. for qualifying and 1350 deg. for the race. Photos of the damage caused by the header wrap and the resulting heat soak should end that debate. On a race car the headers are an expendable part. I doubt many share that opinion on the 355 units even though I read many are able to replace both sides in under 4 hours. I need to hire some of these folks!!! Header wrap is another stop gap fix that is FAR worse than the OE setup and should be avoided at all costs for street use. The photos will say the rest and folks can make a decision for themselves.

Yesterday I pulled the temp pyrometer sets (TIF 7000) out of the tool cabinet and did some tests on an aluminum plate to verify they read the same. Time in the cabinet has taken its toll to say the least. The surface temp units were way off while the air temp and submersible ends were close. I have sent these back to TIF for repairs and when I get them back I will send one off to Vern to start compiling the header readings.

Friday I was on the phone with my gear manufacturer discussing Lusso and GTC parts I am making for their gearboxes. He has a fair amount of experience using the bronze alloys in various applications in drivetrains and is sending me some reports his company did regarding failures found on military applications. Many of these alloys are very close to those used in the valve guides, albeit at a much lower operating temp, and might provide some more insight regarding the guide issues. Here I call him to discuss replacing poured lead babot material with a 936 bronze in a gearbox and end up talking valve guides on a car built 30+ years later. Answers come from the strangest places. Where is the next stone to turn over and look under?

I really could use feedback on what owners of the 355's consider a realistic life span of the engine should be. I need to fill in these slots on the flowchart to follow that leg further. When answering that question remember what we are dealing with. Realistic expectations before a tear down for freshening?

Dave

 

Dave and Bruce, Another thought on my engine. Mine has not had the liners or rings replaced. when they "refreshed" my engine before I bought my car they did the upper end and replaced the rod bearings, rebuilt the water pump, remember tho my car was raced in the Series and some tract use for 6500 miles, it now has 19,000+ I have only had in on the tract a few times (easy use). Compression has always been around 180-190 in all cylinders(I know this is slightly low but I figured after the race miles thats not bad) It was at this figure when I checked the car over before purchase and was the same today when I checked it, I ckeck this about ever nine months. They also replaced my cats at 5900 miles I pulled them about a 1000 miles after that(would have to check my records to be exact) The engine uses about a quart of oil every 2000 miles depending on how hard I drive it, sometimes less than that. So Dave when you ask how long should it last what is the equivilent street miles to 6500 race miles? I would like to get 100,000(average street miles not race miles) out of a new engine I think the 355 engine is easily capable of that if properly maintained. I have all the service records from day 1 on my car if that is any help. Regards, Vern

 

Comparing race miles to street miles is impossible. I have built engines for some drivers that will last seasons and for some animals that only get a few races. Speaking from personal experiance, a mechanic who is also a driver makes for a tough wining situation. There are corners where the fast line is to hang on the rev limiter for a moment rather than shift or lift. A mechanic will often enter that situation and put a $ value to that decission and take the conservetive path to make the engine live longer. That doesnt win sprint type races but it conserves the car. Often why you see mechanics running the enduro series. Just my experiance.

The 180-190 compression figures are fine if the are all consistent. I see no problem with those at all. A specific compression number is useless unless one specific gauge is used for every test.

Oil usage of 1 qt per 2K miles is actually very nice. I have no problem with that what so ever. This is the time where I again refer to this model as a Race Car with a lisc. plate. Remember, there are oil jets fitted into the V of the block spraying a constant stream of oil onto the bottom side of the piston to keep it from melt down. Engines designed for "transportation" uses do everything under the sun to keep oil away from the cylinder walls and pistons. Wrist pins are lubricated by oil wiped off the walls by the oil rings...... With the Ferrari engines we have a situation where oil is being sprayed directly on the piston to keep everything alive and well.

It is at this point where design compromises come into play. There are those that complain at great length about the rattle and banging of the dual mass flywheels, some even go to the extent of removing them and replace with a solid unit and some will throw any old grease in them when rebuilding the unit.
When balancing an engine expected to turn in excess of 8K RPM, Ferrari saw the consumer acceptable variance of 2 grams to be adequate. I require the number to be under 1 gram variance. That said, how does one balance an engine with a constantly changing weight caused by oil being thrown directly at the pistons? With a dual mass flywheel capable of making large changes quickly. Balance aside, we still have vast amounts of oil being sprayed on the cylinder walls that needs to be kept out of the combustion chamber.

We have all read the discussions about how one can pry this engine around to slip belts on without removing it. Removing the engine just to do belts was never Ferrari's intent. A Ferrari engine that is in perfect tune, all the time, will live to a ripe old age. VERY few pay any attention to cleaning the intake tracks, removing and flow testing injectors on a regular basis, testing resistance of all the ignition system, cleaning each and every harness plug on the engine each time it is out.... you get the picture. The debate is how quickly and how cheaply can this service be done, ie. what corners can we cut and what can we get away without doing? What is good enough to keep it running? Running how?

We have an aluminum engine block exposed to incredible stresses due to the power displacement, operating RPM range, heat and vibration. When everything is working perfectly it runs like a sewing machine. Lower the compression in one cylinder, run one cylinder a bit lean from a poorly maintained injector or a dirty harness plug to the Motronic, gummed and carboned up throttle bodies causing variances in flow.... any changes what so ever to the perfect operating environment will double or triple the harmonic vibrations the engine is exposed to. Wonder why some cars have the flywheel emitting noises sounding like a death rattle? Poor damn thing is working over time trying to balance out other problems that had not been addressed. How many strictly adhere to a perfect engine warm up (every single time its started) before throwing the throttle open wide and reving the tar out of it? VERY few!

With the current mind set we have today regarding what constitutes proper maintaince, 100K miles on a Ferrari engine and having it running properly at that time is an impossible expectation in my opinion. One can do that with a big cast iron lump giving very small power output.
So not to point fingers at anyone else, I will raise my hand high and say I am guilty of all the above with my own car. Yes I have reved it when I saw less than full oil temp showing. Yes I have a hesitation on accel due to too much pump discharge and am too busy with other things to remove the carbs to replace them. Yes, there are a few more items on that list as well and this is a low output 308 engine that is lightly stressed, and I KNOW BETTER than to do this. Every single one of us is guilty in one way or another. What is the cost of doing this? Life expectancy of the engine.

Most owners have no idea of what a properly running 355 feels like. There are very few on the road that are truely as good as they can be. Hell, they were never as good as they could be when they were sitting on the showroom floor, they were consumer acceptable.

I think a reasonable expectation is more in the 50K range but again the question pops up, what is good enough? Mind you, this goes for all highly stressed, high output Ferrari engines, not just the 355. Sure they will go way past that mileage and continue to run but how well? What's good enough? Only the owner can answer that. Personally I think it is an impossible question to answer.

Dave

 

Had to laugh at the comment of prying the engine around to get the belts changed without removing it. Anyone who does that is a moron, I don't care what argument they use to support it . As you said there is so much more to do when servicing a 355 other than changing belts. My flywheel has never made any noise so I'm guilty on not checking it and I have not checked the flow of my injectors, always tried to use Redline injector cleaner on a regular basis(and no laughing but, I use Marvel in my fuel on almost every tank of gas). Have cleaned the butterflies several times (altho they always seem to clean) and always check and clean the connectors. I do religiously run my engine below 3000 until I reach at least 140 degrees oil temp, absolutely no exceptions on this one.
Oh and buy the way you stated that there was no answer to the correct milage for rebuild of which I agree there are so many variables BUT you asked the question I was just throwing a # out there, hahaha. Regards, Vern

 

I have had the same debate with a highly respected friend from FNA back when the cars were new. The reason for the rambling post was I am still arguing the question with myself.

Guides and ancillary items aside, I think vibration will be found to be the next source of wear and if it can be controlled the engines will live a long life. I believe this will show itself on the main bearings. If that is the case we have little to worry about as a freshen up will be a quick job when the engine is out. If the flywheels dont leak, all is good and needs no service.

My point in the last post was that "the package" is all based on an aluminum block that is incredibly fluid in nature. Balance, in every respect, is essential to a long life.

On engines I have built with high 30K mileage there are some liner / piston combinations that show virtually zero wear. The rods have shown a bit of fretting where the bearing shell has caused galvanic corrosion but this is easy to deal with. The crank is virtually bomb proof.... Exceptional package. Then there are the cylinders were the liner fails, shows heavy wear and rings that are 1/2 (or less) their original width. Hence the quest.

The basis for my question is whenever one is about to change a design in any way, be it headers, guides, heat shields, anything, it would be irresponsible not to set an expected life span documented with data and research. This thought came to me due to discussions regarding header wrapping. There are going to be some angry folks in the near future!

There are very few that get the injector cleaning done these days at my shop. The major services are expensive enough by themselves. It is usually the low mileage cars where problems are found. Early on when chasing the theory of ring wash out causing the cylinder wear I came up with a procedure of dropping a cylinder and monitoring the resulting HC and CO levels of a bank. Not a fool proof system but with enough baseline data it proved to be a reliable and quick check without incurring big expenses on a guess. It proved good enough to show me I was heading in the wrong direction but did point out numerous problem cars. This led to cleaning the intakes and checking how closely the intake bleeds were set at the factory. These were all set AFTER the cam timing was done (when new) and were wrong unless they happened to get the cam timing correct the first time. This is the point where I found the throttle break away solution on the 355's to be just a proper set up. And on and on.. The beaultiful part of all this is Ferrari gave us a package that is adjustable in every respect. Fix the known problems, adjust everything properly to suit the new conditions / components and drive the hell out of it. No magic here.

The point of my rambling is to show how each and every component is inter related. Each effect the next in line and to design one without looking at each and every one of them is wrong.
I look at the new header design to last the life of the car. It will get exhaust gases to the tail pipe just fine but I am looking for it to do more than that. I want it to help the exhaust valve run cooler, lessen the reversion, draw out the spent exhaust so the engine doesn't have to pump it out hence assisting (might as well take advantage of the big overlap in the cams) the incoming flow of air, all while dropping the compartment temps considerably over the stock design. Bruce and Kevin have done some wonderful work and they are very close.

No big deal, just weld some tubes together. You can predict it now, "I just installed XY headers and now I have CEL's" and if that isnt enough along come the Fed's with their thoughts and red tape. A big problem to contend with and I have no answers to this. At this point I am convinced I have the correct answers to most that plagues the 355 engine. Testing will either prove me right or wrong again.

Dave

 

<<There are those that complain at great length about the rattle and banging of the dual mass flywheels, some even go to the extent of removing them and replace with a solid unit and some will throw any old grease in them when rebuilding the unit.
When balancing an engine expected to turn in excess of 8K RPM, Ferrari saw the consumer acceptable variance of 2 grams to be adequate. I require the number to be under 1 gram variance. That said, how does one balance an engine with a constantly changing weight caused by oil being thrown directly at the pistons? With a dual mass flywheel capable of making large changes quickly. >>

I was one of the first to post on FChat the use of aftermarket grease and solid flywheels . There seems to be nothing special about kluber as long as the specs of the alternative greases used are matched up reasonably well or at least think about the environment of the grease use and choose accordingly. In a pinch when no kluber was available I have used off brand grease I can tell you different greases work just fine. I suspect the improperly greased cars you have had to do "housekeeping" on are when the grease used is nowhere near the kluber spec. and things like out of wack heat range can cause grease pooling and thus increased imbalance. To me this is a mobil 1 vs. redline argument? The easiest way to get to 1 gram balance or better and keep it balanced is to go with a solid flywheel. This works too as my single data point race miles attest. Sure the Ferrari is not a Porsche but Porsche and others use the dual mass flywheels too for all the dampning reasons but these too are routinely among the first items for aftermarket guys to remove and go solid. There are many Porsches around and they are not living shorter lives due to this modification while my Ferrari is but one datapoint. I do not understand how at say a modest 6000 rpm a dual mass flywheel would react to a transient harmonic imbalance if created by an oil stream. The transient in oil stream is not likely to overcome the centripital force acting on the grease pack and componants. Higher RPM make even more centripital force and the flywheel would react slower to any vibrations. I see dual mass action primarily beneficial at low rpm like start-up and shut-down. The higher the RPM the more dual mass acts like a solid single mass. Maybe you can tell me what I am missing here. As to the oil spray creating imbalance, 99% of engines are wet sump splash lubricated with unpredictable amounts (weights) of oil hitting critical parts. One of the virtues of Dry sump oil mist lubrication is that it controls this much better. Can you explain the problem you are seeing with the 355 lubrication system?

Are you looking at this problem purely from and extreme race engine perspective or from the streetcar perspective as Ferrari delivered the 355? We readers need a frame of referrence for what you guys are trying to achieve. You can build an engine for 1 race, 50k miles, 100k miles etc... While thinking of the 355 as a race car with a radio is lofty praise it is still a 3000+lb lump of streetcar with 50 lb seats, 100lb A/C and street tires. So in the 1995 era of 993 Porsches, first Gen ZO6 vettes Vern's idea of 100k miles is a very reasonable and expected target since each of these other cars will go well beyond 100k. If you want only 50k miles I don't understand the purpose of this entire thread because the kludges that already exist with steel guides and aftermarket headers in their current form will get you 50k.

 

Fbb,
As you know, we both agree in the solid flywheel for race applications. Hell, take that further and for race applications a solid aluminum unit with a 5.5" dual disc so there is NO weight to deal with. I happen to think the dual mass Ferrari unit is perfect for street use and prolongs the engine life in this application. I can agree to disagree, I have no fight left in me these days. As with Vern, I now sit back, shake my head and go on to the next topic with no response. I may be a slow learner but I saw what happened to Brian, life is too short to have half the folks angry with what you say.

My primary concern was with the street cars where Bruce is geared to the race version. I think the two different focuses working together has been a wonderful advancement in knowledge. I am excited about the enhancement of performance on the street cars while retaining all of the emissions components. I think this is the future we have to look at and gear up for now. I for one am willing to leave a few HP on the table in the end if we can help retain and possibly enhance the emissions efficiency of these cars while still building on the overall output and bettering longevity.


"If you want only 50k miles I don't understand the purpose of this entire thread because the kludges that already exist with steel guides and aftermarket headers in their current form will get you 50k."

Yup, you may well be right, seems I might have wasted a great deal of time on this. I suspected most owners wanted the cars running properly and was looking for the point where performance and reliability dropped off substantially. As I stated many times earlier, I have been wrong far more that right on my initial thoughts. I stand corrected.


Regards,

Dave

 

“Fbb,
As you know, we both agree in the solid flywheel for race applications. Hell, take that further and for race applications a solid aluminum unit with a 5.5" dual disc so there is NO weight to deal with. I happen to think the dual mass Ferrari unit is perfect for street use and prolongs the engine life in this application.”

O.K we agree on a lot.

“ I can agree to disagree, I have no fight left in me these days. As with Vern, I now sit back, shake my head and go on to the next topic with no response. I may be a slow learner but I saw what happened to Brian, life is too short to have half the folks angry with what you say.”

I’m not sure what you mean. I certainly am not looking for a fight. I’ve got a simple mind thought and about what the properties of the kluber may be, then choose accordingly…it worked. Later, I got tired of messy grease and modified the OEM flywheel pack to be solid and 7lbs lighter…it worked. Sorry if I’m bugging you but “no response” will mean I will likely repeat this blasphomy again until taught otherwise.

”My primary concern was with the street cars where Bruce is geared to the race version. I think the two different focuses working together has been a wonderful advancement in knowledge. I am excited about the enhancement of performance on the street cars while retaining all of the emissions components. I think this is the future we have to look at and gear up for now. I for one am willing to leave a few HP on the table in the end if we can help retain and possibly enhance the emissions efficiency of these cars while still building on the overall output and bettering longevity.”

This is a meaningful statement and really can lay the groundwork for a list of compromises that can guide development. It will be a significant effort.

 

"It will be a significant effort."

I passed the "significant" point a couple of hundred hours ago. The rest is all down hill.

Dave