Ferrari Appeal Withdrawn

GoFerrari28 · Sep 7, 2007

moretti said: ↑

I am firmly in that bed of discontentment and would hope that no lawyer here would defend McL apologists, you should all have to sit out next season with them, they are nothing but %#$@ing cheating bastards .... roll on the hearing
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It's a lawyer's duty to do justice, even if it means defending someone you believe to be guilty. It's a standard thad has to be applied equally, and I'm sure you would want Ferrari and their loyal fans to be given the same benefit if, hypothetically speaking, Stepney were to come forward and reveal cheating and espionage that occurred during the Schumacher era. Some of us value the sport more than any one team or driver such that noone else has the right to say to us that we need to sit the season out. F1 may be harmed by this and any continuing fallout from this scandal but hopefully it will make the teams and drivers more respectful of the rules and regulations and possibly return this sport to an era of sportsmanship and decency.

I'm still waiting to hear Stepney's testimony in front of the FIA, assuming they want to actually hear what he has to say.

senna21 · Sep 7, 2007

GoFerrari28 said: ↑

It's a lawyer's duty to do justice, even if it means defending someone you believe to be guilty. It's a standard thad has to be applied equally, and I'm sure you would want Ferrari and their loyal fans to be given the same benefit if, hypothetically speaking, Stepney were to come forward and reveal cheating and espionage that occurred during the Schumacher era. Some of us value the sport more than any one team or driver such that noone else has the right to say to us that we need to sit the season out. F1 may be harmed by this and any continuing fallout from this scandal but hopefully it will make the teams and drivers more respectful of the rules and regulations and possibly return this sport to an era of sportsmanship and decency.

I'm still waiting to hear Stepney's testimony in front of the FIA, assuming they want to actually hear what he has to say.
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+1 Nice post.

Senna1994 · Sep 7, 2007

GoFerrari28 said: ↑

It's a lawyer's duty to do justice, even if it means defending someone you believe to be guilty. It's a standard thad has to be applied equally, and I'm sure you would want Ferrari and their loyal fans to be given the same benefit if, hypothetically speaking, Stepney were to come forward and reveal cheating and espionage that occurred during the Schumacher era. Some of us value the sport more than any one team or driver such that noone else has the right to say to us that we need to sit the season out. F1 may be harmed by this and any continuing fallout from this scandal but hopefully it will make the teams and drivers more respectful of the rules and regulations and possibly return this sport to an era of sportsmanship and decency.

I'm still waiting to hear Stepney's testimony in front of the FIA, assuming they want to actually hear what he has to say.
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+10000

moretti · Sep 8, 2007

GoFerrari28 said: ↑

F1 may be harmed by this and any continuing fallout from this scandal but hopefully it will make the teams and drivers more respectful of the rules and regulations and possibly return this sport to an era of sportsmanship and decency.
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Jeff, while endorsing your sentiments, do you truly believe any sportsmanship will ever return to most sports ?

So much money has got in the way of sport that most sports have ceased to be sportsmanlike, just look at all the controversies surrounding all the high profile sports where athletes use drugs to boost their performances and referees/umpires are at the centre of scandals or crucial members of teams have taken bribes.

Hell, cricket which is one of the hardest games to rig has had a few scandals in the last few years where players have admitted throwing games so in a "sport" where 10-100s of millions rest on the outcome and the huge egos need pandering to, there will never be any respect for the rules.

Do I believe Ferrari cheated in the years they won the WCC ? Yep
Do I believe Ferrari cheated in the years they didn't win the WCC ? Yep

Espionage is a whole different ballgame , and I think you're right, we need to know the truth about Stepney

PhilNotHill · Sep 8, 2007

hgentile said: ↑

1) The major italian newspapers published yesterday the following claiming the info comes from one that knows " the FIA has numerous and relevant information". It's anybody's speculation trying to interpret what the insider conveyed to the media, but it does imply that the FIA is in possession of information that prompted the reconvening of the World Council a second time and cancelling the Appeal.

2) The spanish newspaper AS states from a good source that the emails from both Alonso and De la Rosa were submitted to the FIA following receipt of the FIA letter requesting them, as they were afraid to loose their superlicense. These emails are described as being dated at the beginning of the year. Whether the FIA got wind from Alonso's tip who was attempting to get out of his contract or originated elsewhere is again unconfirmed and the newspaper states as such.

3) The italian prosecutor in Modena announced today that they are in possession of all the communications of Stepney and Coughlan including emails and telephone messages with the exception of the voice telephone conversations.

I think anybody can make up their own mind and, without a lot rhetoric going on, can assume that the above 1st and 3rd paragraphs are facts and probably so is the 2nd.
It would then appear that Ferrari info was in McL possession at the beginning of the year, much earlier then previously postulated and much more widely disseminated then previously thought making Ron Dennis defense more arduous to defend.
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Good analysis. Sounds like McCheaters are up a creek without a paddle. Couldn't happen to a nicer bunch of guys.

Retirement must beooking pretty good to Dennis the Menace right now. How's he gonna weasel out of this one?

GoFerrari28 · Sep 8, 2007

moretti said: ↑

Jeff, while endorsing your sentiments, do you truly believe any sportsmanship will ever return to most sports ?

So much money has got in the way of sport that most sports have ceased to be sportsmanlike, just look at all the controversies surrounding all the high profile sports where athletes use drugs to boost their performances and referees/umpires are at the centre of scandals or crucial members of teams have taken bribes.

Hell, cricket which is one of the hardest games to rig has had a few scandals in the last few years where players have admitted throwing games so in a "sport" where 10-100s of millions rest on the outcome and the huge egos need pandering to, there will never be any respect for the rules.

Do I believe Ferrari cheated in the years they won the WCC ? Yep
Do I believe Ferrari cheated in the years they didn't win the WCC ? Yep

Espionage is a whole different ballgame , and I think you're right, we need to know the truth about Stepney
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Yes, I believe that if stiffer penalties are handed out for blatant violations, especially where performance enhancing drugs are involved, then many sports can return to motorsports and other sports as well.

My point about Stepney is that I suspect he will reveal past espionage, not mere cheating, that the FIA and Ferrari don't want to come out during the season, or else he would have been called up before the FIA by now.

bill365 · Sep 8, 2007

senna21 said: ↑

Bill you really should take that foot out of your mouth. Take a look at the dates. Max was had only heard the arguments from the ACI (Ferrari) not McLaren. He wasn't at the hearing. The article I'd posted was in reference to Dennis’ letter a week later, to him, informing him of the events of the hearing according to McLaren. As I've said there are two sides to each story.

I also think you, and others might be sorely disappointed with the upcoming hearing. Here is a copy of the letter the FIA sent to Alonso, Hamilton and De La Rossa.

Notice a number of things here.

1) "The FIA has subsequently been made aware of an allegation that one or more McLaren drivers may be in possession, or that such drivers have recently been in possession, of written evidence relevant to this investigation." In other words they've heard a rumor that the drivers might be in possession of information regarding the Stepney case. They don't actually have this information in their possession.

2) "The FIA therefore formally requests that you produce copies of any relevant documents which may be in your possession or power of procurement and which may be relevant to this case. For these purposes "documents" includes all written materials such as emails, letters, electronic communications, text messages, notes, memoranda, drawings, diagrams, data,. or other material, stored in any physical, "hard copy" or electronic form." What this means is they're on a fishing expedition. The rumor has centered on emails so that's what they're looking for as well as anything else. Might as well cast a wide net. If I were them I sure would as well. Also this request shows that they don't actually have any evidence. They believe there might be something but they haven't gotten hold of it yet.

3) "In particular (though without limiting the generality of this request), the FIA wishes to receive copies of any electronic communications (howsoever conveyed or stored) which may be relevant to this case and which make reference to Ferrari, Nigel Stepney or any technical or other information coming from or connected with either Ferrari or Mr. Stepney." This cast the net even farther, again showing that they're really not sure what their looking for, saying even an email or document with a reference to Ferrari or Stepney or technical info relating to the two should be turned over. That means even if Alonso and De La Rossa sent an email to each other like "Those Ferrari guys are looking fast in practice", or something else that's as innocuous,
must be turned over.

In short the FIA doesn't have any new evidence! They've only heard as everyone else here has about some emails.

These emails may or may not exist and may or may not be damming to McLaren.

If I'm ever in need of an attorney or a fair trial remind me to never call any of you guys.
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Charles,
Your above response is ridiculous and superfluous. Wholly unrelated to the debate, as was underway at the time.

Why change the topic of discussion, can't you keep up??? Are you deficient in short term memory and comprehension???

In case you have forgotten, you were amusingly using a spin-doctored letter from the defendant, to refute an official statement from a principal of the governing body... You aped RD's assertion, that Ferrari was able to make an official presentation of evidence before the WMSC hearing procedures.

Can't you admit you are/were wrong???

For your edification...

senna21 said: ↑

Hardly. Before the hearing Ferrari submitted their memorandum dated July 16th, 2007 along with supporting documents which together totaled 118 pages! Ferrari did not send McLaren the memorandum. How sporting of them! McLaren did not see the document until two days before the hearing and in the meantime much of the document had been leaked (gee I wonder who did that?) to the Italian media. McLaren claimed that the document was grossly inaccurate and the Italian media, naturally, had already begun to try McLaren publicly. Judging by your and other, one sided opinion I'd say they've done a good job of it.

Along with the Ferrari documents Ferrari who was represented by lawyers, were able to make submissions and ask questions throughout the hearing. Mr. Todt also gave evidence. "It was clear that the FIA President afforded Ferrari every opportunity to be heard in order to ensure that all relevant matters were heard by the WMSC. Indeed, at the very end of the proceeding, Ferrari intervened with a request to make further closing comments. Ferrari's request was permitted and their lawyer proceeded to make further detailed closing comments at some length."*
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Ney said: ↑

From F1Complete timeline
"31 July 2007
FIA president Max Mosley agrees to send the espionage case against McLaren to the governing body's Court of Appeal. Following the written request of Ferrari's national sanctioning organisation, the Automobile Club d'Italia (ACI), Mosley said it was right to further investigate the case because Ferrari had not been allowed to present evidence in last Thursday's hearing of the World Motor Sport Council."

Todt did not give evidence, their attorneys did not give evidence and they were not allowed to call witnesses. Your statement is fiction.
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Maybe your other foot, the one that's not in your mouth, should be placed in another orifice !!
Regards,
Bill

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Ferrari Appeal Withdrawn

GoFerrari28 Formula 3

senna21 F1 Rookie

Senna1994 F1 World Champ

moretti Five Time F1 World Champ Lifetime Rossa Owner

PhilNotHill Two Time F1 World Champ Owner

GoFerrari28 Formula 3

bill365 F1 Rookie

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Ferrari Appeal Withdrawn

GoFerrari28 Formula 3

senna21 F1 Rookie

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moretti Five Time F1 World Champ Lifetime Rossa Owner

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GoFerrari28 Formula 3

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