Do you think McLaren would still be winning without the documents?

Why don't you look at BMW's performance this year compared to last. They scored a total of 36 points for the entire 2006 season.

They are the 3rd best team in F1 by a significant margin right now.

 

ummm... better car, different drivers, last year's champion is in this year's McLaren team, and the new rookie sensation Lewis Hamilton is kicking ass, of course...

~shahedc
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Good point.. how come no one blames Ferrari for hiring a guy who stole the info and passed it on?

~shahedc
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It could be that too...they use to say MS had his better lap times and was more confortable exploring his limits with an OVERSTEER tendency...and that will influence the set-up, maybe not as far design...but I think all those continuated drive/design trends can make life harder.

I´ve had them myself on very different design areas...but it does happen.

 

Comment:
"Good point.. how come no one blames Ferrari for hiring a guy who stole the info and passed it on?"

Stepney has been indicted, Ferrari can't be blamed for hiring someone that had been trusted for years at Ferrari... That's stupid... Should the iraqi's hold citizens of the United States for voting in George Bush?

 

They should be thankful...but that's a whole 'nother discussion...

 

The court system will blame Ferrari.... it might be 10% ferrari's fault and 90% McLaren... but their has to be some blame for Ferrari because none of this would be happening if Ferrari didn't have some problems with their staff.

The Court or FIA might say to Ferrari- "We are here for your protection, but we can't fight a war for you"

 

No.

Their tell-tale performance at MTL and Indy came right out of thin air.

 

Now that you put it like that... I see your point. He deceived his people for his own selfish reasons, and created a hostile situation.

... and so did Stepney...

~shahedc
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+1...maybe the reliability of the 2007 McLaren will be RD's "evidence" that they did not copy the Ferrari F2007 car design.

I do think there was a benefit to McLaren in the first 4-5 races in the way of tire balance and eliminating Ferrari's floorboards, but anything beyond that would have to be proven on Thursday.

 

I disagree that their is any legal culpability on Ferrari's part. It is unreasonable to hold a company responsible for the actions of a rogue employee outside their control.

I think a more relevant issue is whether the FIA should hold Ferrari responsible for the breach of the same sporting regulations as McLaren, failing to have ALL its employees adhere to the rules. My guess is they won't.

Judging from the FIA statements following the first hearing, they found McLaren guilty becuase they failed to control Coughlan's actions however as they concluded that the information was not used by McLaren that the culpability was limited to failing to supervise their employees and therefore ruled that the infraction did not warrant punishment. In the case of Ferrari, even though the team is also in technical breach of the regulations, nothing is served by holding the team responsible. In teh case of McLaren, the FIA had to act, in the case of Ferrari, they really don't need to.

 

I disagree that it's the obvious link.

Teams rise and fall all the time. What made Renault so quick 2 years ago when they were mid-pack at best? On the flip side, how come Honda is fighting for LAST PLACE these days when 3-4 years ago they were definitely in one of the top teams? Its not like McLaren jumped from the back of the grid to the front - they have always been in the top 3 teams. It was that one year with the MP104/d that was supposedly technically brilliant but just very unreliable. When it worked, Kimi was fast as hell. But most of the time it broke.

I think Ferraris problem this year is reliability. Massa has had - what - 2 DNF's? One with the pit lane red light, this past race, and maybe one before? And he had that gearbox issue at the start of the season. Kimi has also had 2 DNF's I believe. But even if it's 4 DNF's... well McLaren - have they had any? Lets say Kimi and Massa averaged 6 points each for each of their DNF's - thats 24 more points. If Ferrari had 24 more WCC points, they would be leading the championship. Likewise if Kimi and Massa had ~14 points more each, there would be a 4-way tie pretty much for the WDC.

It's all about reliability and making wholly avoidable mistakes - and it appears to be getting worse!

 

Not only that, but this guy saying weight distribution, fuel tank location, etc - ALL of that was set in stone long before McLaren got any Ferrari documents. Its not like they went back and redesigned the car. I also think all the teams have reams of information regarding tire setups and I doubt that knowing what worked on the Ferrari would be all that helpful to the McLaren with a totally different chassis.

Hell, we hear all the time that dropping the engine from one car into another does not mean the transplant-ee will be a fast car. How many times did a great engine go into a car and it ended up a dog? Or what about when Ferrari gave their old chassis to - who was it - Red Bull or STR? And it was a dog also. So if engines and chassis' as complete units dont make for necessarily fast cars, why would data on tire setups?

I think more likely, the setup is the thing you CANT prove. If someone said they copied the wing, or the monocoque design, then its easy to verify that. People cant make the claim because it would be so simple to disprove. But the setup is something that cannot be proven, so people who had already made up their minds will point to the setup and claim it was stolen instead.

Two things come to mind:

The only ones who would have access to all the data and setups is the FIA. If they go to the hassle of checking radio transmissions between car and driver (when Alonso held up Hamilton), and specific telemetry including when the driver braked (Schumi at Rascasse), does anyone really believe they would NOT ask the teams for their setup info and compare to see if its been plagiarized? Of course they would. So...we're back to either it didnt happen, or an anti-Ferrari FIA cover-up. I tend to believe the former, as I believe most reasonable folks would.

And second, given McLaren obviously did not think they were going to get caught, why *wouldn't* they copy all the good parts of the Ferrari? Its not like they were pre-emptively covering their butts. If they had any inkling they would get caught, they would have ran to the FIA and fired Coughlan the minute he mentioned it. They never thought they would get caught - and they still didnt copy the info. One has to ask why? The obvious answer is they did not want to F-over Ferrari, isnt it?

 

It was Sauber. Interesting to check with Peter Sauber if he got any "user guide" with Ferrari's chassis.

 

People forget that Ferrari had the same season in 2005 that McLaren had in 2006 and came back to challenge for the title the following year.

It is frustrating how selective memories can be...

 

+1 A hell of a lot better than Renault did...BMW's performance has improved, they spent big money on a second wind tunnel but are still clearly behind McLaren & Ferrari. McLaren has drastically improved their engine reliability, but I believe that's due to the 19K rev limit, not stolen documents.

 

Who knows. I find it hard to believe that they just became that relable on their own over the off season given the fact that they have the Ferrari tech documents. But, BMW seems to have made leaps and bounds over the few months, so it is entirely possible. I just think the evidence is stacked against them.

P.S. I'm not saying they weren't a threat before, everyone knows McLaren has been a huge player for years and years, I just think the timing of their sudden reliability is against them. Not blaming any of Ferrari's problems on the documents being stolen, that is soley on them.

 

+1,000,000..... back on topic

 

This isn't just about designs, it's about stratagies, and set ups as well. How Ferrari gets the tires to temp, what fuel loads they use; what has and hasn't worked in the past at different circuts.

 

And your memory seems to be the most selective one of all. Just to refresh you a bit....In 2005 the one tire rule was inserted to slow the wins of Ferrari and in 2006 it was retracted and Ferrari were right back where they were before that dumb rule. Does that help?

 

Which proves my point.

There are a myriad of factors for a team to underperform one season and return to form the next...there is nothing nefarious with McLaren's return to form in 2007 than there was for Ferrari's in 2006.

 

McLaren have been racing in F1 since 1969 (?, I believe) they know what they are doing, and have their own records. Not saying the documents were not interesting reading, but you are completely off base to think that this caused a turn around for McLaren. I have not witnessed a turn around, other than a driver change. McLaren have been right up there winning races for the last 20 years!

Ofcourse McLaren would still be winning ... and would have been winning more recently if they did not have Kimi wasting car development. Now Kimi is doing that for Ferrari and thus Ferrari will slow.
Pete

 

If I knew the answer I would know what they did.

If I knew what they did I would be a party to the crime (if any).

We'll have to wait and see what they want to tell us. It may or may not take civil and criminal court action to get the truth. OJ was found not guilty and the criminal trial but guilty in the civil trial.

 

+1 This I agree with.

The car has always been fast the key to there success this year has been its bomb proof reliabilty.. The kiss of death now given.

But now I must lie down that took a lot out of me..agreeing that is