The Latest BB/BBi Rim & Rubber Debate Thread

I'm really impressed with the look and feel of the XWXs on my Boxer. They just look right.

They feel pretty good, too. I can tell it's a little softer than the old Goodyears, but I think I prefer it. And, let's face it, with these 25-30 year old cars, it's really not about getting maximum performance.

 

Well said Don!

 

I bought some Firestone 500s for my BB with 15" tires, they are close in height to originals but wider treads running 255/60/15s rear and 235/60s front, I am really un impressed with these tires, too much sidewall flex, going to a vintage race tire next with Goodyear


http://www.racegoodyear.com/products/vintage.html


AFter all the work I did with my new racing Eibach springs and Konis along with the BBLM light weight calipers and drilled rotors my BB should handle well, huge contrast with my 355 in handling which I believe is due to tires quite a bit though the 355 has 18" and the BB 15" I think I can get the BB much closer to the 355 in handling with race tires

 

Hey Buzzm2005- I talked to Neez a year or two ago and they agreed to (10 set minimum) forged aluminum replicas of our wheels in 17x10 rears and 17x8 fronts for $839 a wheel (fronts) and $998 a wheel (rears). Hopefully they will still do that price and we can get 10 takers.....

 

That's a great price -- but 17x10? What do you expect to run on the rears? 255?

BTW: I have pinged Neez on this again but they have really bad email turnaround.

And: We still don't have a good candidate for rubber with good period profile in 17" except for Michelin PS A/S.

 

I am in on the neez, sign me up.
My boxer is going in for a redo this winter. I am definatly in on the neez wheels. 255 or 265 is more than adequate for rears 235's fine for fronts. We do not need exactly the same diameter, there are plenty of choices for a 17 wheel. and 18 would look to big a 17 is closer to original.
45 or 50 series tires work fine. I have 45 265 16rears and 50 245 16fronts and they are fine, car sits a little lower. 17s would be 275 40 17 rears 235 50 17 fronts or 265 40 17 rears and 235 45 17 fronts.

So who is going to really coordinate this? How do we get this goind, Robin do you still have the contact at neez ?

 

I have emailed Neez directly in Japan three times over the last 12 months with no reply. Very poor on their part.
Steve

 

17x10 seemed to be the group choice at that time... They will make the wheels in whatever size we want. John at Eisenhaus was my contact with Neez back then. If there are 10 takers, I would be happy to call him back. I just don't want to waste his time again.

 

I am very interested.
Steve

 

I am definatly in. That makes Steve,Buzz,Robin and me for four. Perhaps for 5 sets they would do it too.

 

HEY SEAN,

YOU CAN COUNT ME IN. I ALSO DIDN'T MIND THE LOOK OF THE CAROBU 17" WHEEL / BRAKE PACKAGE SHOWN /
F-40 ESQUE BOLTS EARLIER IN THIS THREAD.

 

When I last talked to John at Eisenhaus, he stated that 10 was the minimum Neez would do for a custom wheel. We could ask about 5 but if we could persuade them to do that number (20 wheels) I'll bet the cost per wheel would go up significantly.....

 

Robin even if the cost were 25-50% more it would still be worth it, stock looking wheels in modern sizes. I imagine these wheels are milled from billet so the cost for one or 20 wheels is probably similar, and I imagine selling 5 sets is going to be more interesting than selling none. It's worth a try, I you would prefer to send me the contact number I can give them a call.

 

Rubber, rubber, rubbber....what to put on?

 

I've had 17" BBS wheels on my BB for five years now...No issues.
17x8" Fronts
17x10" Rears

As for sneakers, I run Bridgestone Pole Positions...

Regards,
David

 

What size Pole Positions?

 

Im sticking with the TRXs because upgrading to a 17 still seems to leave us without an unlimited choice of tires and the 18s will be too big for the cars looks. Also, the cost is tough for me to justify if I take into consideration the type of driving I do with my antique boxer. I wont track it so ultimate grip isnt needed and I can buy several TRX tires over the years for the cost of new rims and 17 inch tires. Thats just my 2 cents. Its a nice idea just not practical for me.

 

Thanks for sharing.

BTW, Paul: the Boxer survived 40 mins of stop-and-go on the Cross Bronx Expressway this afternoon without overheating although both the water AND the oil temp went up. I've never even seen the oil temp go past the midline. She earned her Urban Environment Survival badge today.

If only she had good rubber..... OK, OK, OK.....

 

For some reason if I could get my hands on the Canepa boxer rims I would jump at them but having the stock look after spending all that dough doesnt satisfy me. I like the TRX look but also love the Canepa boxer wheels, different flavour for a different mood so i could swap back and forth depending on my itch.

 

Now I've got this back on my mind when I need to be placing funds somewhere else.........since I'm here.......

As for the 17" tire issue, anything, and I mean ANYTHING current is going to be significantly better than the TRXs, simply due to advances in technology and design. That these new tires will outperform the design limits of the 30+ year-old BB/BBi chassis is a given, nevermind the on-the-limit skills remaining in even those of us with competition backgrounds. We're simply not going to push these treasures to within an inch of write-off, even on a track, and even then, even a modern truck tire will likely perform beyond the ancient TRX, advanced as it was.......in 1980. Remember that - 1980.....a quarter of a century ago......plus some.
As donv stated, ".....with these 25-30 year old cars, it's really not about getting maximum performance."

IMHO, now it comes down to maintaining the desired look, good availability and options, while still gaining a slight, if not significant, performance advantage. We also get to escape the extortion of the TRX exclusivity in the process. I've focused on the 17" option simply for the aesthetics, handling, and ride qualities from my experience - however, make your own decisions.

From the base Diameter of 27.2" for the stock BBi's 240/55-415, and the Dia. of 26.85" for the stock BB's front 215/70/15 and Dia. of 27.4" of the rear 225/70/15, we get a nice range to work within, especially considering the leniency (creativity?, inconsistent optomism?) of the Speedometer.
From checking Tire Rack's site, there are several good options in both:
245/50-17 at 26.8" includes Bridgestone Potenza RE050 RFT and Pirelli PZero System
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/Compare1.jsp?width=245%2F&ratio=50&diameter=17&startIndex=0&search=true&pagelen=20&pagenum=1&pagemark=1&RunFlat=All&x=56&y=6

255/50-17 at 27.1" includes Bridgestone Potenza RE750, Yokohama AVS S/T and ADVAN (remember what I said about modern truck tires vs. TRX)
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/Compare1.jsp?width=255%2F&ratio=50&diameter=17&startIndex=0&search=true&pagelen=20&pagenum=1&pagemark=1&RunFlat=All&x=68&y=7

On the Wheel front, has anyone contacted SAC, here in the U.S.?? They specialize in "SHORT RUN - LOW VOLUME motor vehicle manufacturer's requirements" like we need, he's a Ferrari guy, and SAC (formerly Speedline America - ring a bell?) currently makes the Champion Motorsport wheels, which are some of the nicest I've seen (or felt) for Porsches, and on request, Audi's, based on those same P-car wheels. No question that he could do this, to the right look and design.
http://sacwheels.geteasycomputerhelp.com/about/about.htm

Whew!! Now it's there for you guys (have we no gals here?) to think about. Goin' to bed.

 

The greatest single upgrade you can make to a boxer is more modern rubber. Its not a matter of tracking, the car just feels infinitly more secure and responsive, the ride is significantly better too. Ferrari never developed the boxer properly, it was an unfinshed materpiece overtaken by legislation which swamped ferrari. That is why a daytona is so highly rated it was the last and most developed of the front engined 12's. In comparison with a daytona a boxer can handle superbly and is lithe, the brakes were alawys good for the street, unlike the previous cars. The moter once allowed to breathe properly is a real screamer in the F1 tradition and the looks are graceful and timelss unlike the moderns. Yet in period and untill now a boxer is overshadowed by a daytona because it was not fully developed and has so called dynamic flaws. Wheels and tires move a boxer ahead of the classic pack on all fronts.

If its OK to remove the retrictive airbox on a 275gtb4 and fit real brakes to a daytona not to mention wider rear wheels then a tasteful wheel upgrade to a boxer should be ok too. Ferrari had to build the 288gto to show it still had the mojo. A properly sorted boxer with reasonable modern rubber is viceral to drive like no modern car and can perform on the street at least equaly, it is simply the best of the classics and the moderns combined, that is if you get rid of the 1960s tech rubber. A stock boxer feels nervous like skating on ice, an unpgrade feels planted and more communicative at the limit. a 288gto had modern rubber and power. A boxer is a bit heavier far more torquey and can have modern rubber. One costs 600k the other 100k and once sorted the difference aint 500k in value.

Its kinda like anything really good say flying a private jet as opposed to going through the xmas rush at jfk, most people know that it is hard to go back afterwards. Only wheels and tires on a boxer aint that expensive. Put another way its like going from bias plys on a vette to radials one wonders how people drove before. Yes the difference is that huge.

 

I expect that the difference would be huge, even with, dare I say, the aforemetioned "truck" rubber. My point is that without going overboard, or anywhere near that point, we'll see major improvement with the addition of modern performance tires. No need to strive for the last iota of performance, nor the perfect diameter. It will just be nice to give Tire Rack, Discount Tire, or the local mom'n'pop shop a call, and have what we need there in a day, ready for mounting.

I'm looking forward to both aspects....sometime in the future. For now, I just wear-out my vintage-spec TRXs when I take her out, and I'm fine with a little slip......in fact, I enjoy it as part of the character of an older car. I do, however, want the better predictability and more-planted feel of some modern rubber.

If SAC will make the wheels, from then on, it could be a matter of dropping a forged blank into the CNC and entering the "BB09" or "BB10" program for a replacement. We can hope.

THIS time, it's really off to bed.

 

I like 255/50-17 in the rears. Only 3.4% smaller in section height; maintains The Boxer Look.

But in the fronts? I'd actually like something smaller, like 235 or even 225. It makes steering lighter and in the turns I'm not worried about plowing the front end like with a heavy front engined car.

 

I have 245's on the front of my car now, for good feel up to say 89 they need 36psi or more, this make the car feel very light at speeds above 80ish. Alternatively for highwau work I go down to say 34-35 psi leaving the car much more planted feeling. I conclude that a modern 235 up front is the way to go, it worked for a maclaren f1 and the testarossa made do with 225's.

The best part of the modern rubber is in the rears, its not that a boxer feels light or skittish, when driven hard the rear end can really let go(ask me). Modern rubber say 265's which I have on my car really plant the rear end, so that when driven hard if you had to back off the result is predicatble and easily correctable. Then there are the ride improvements. The TRX needs like 40psi to perform and then you are driving rocks.
Ever seen a boxer with trx's cornering hard from the outside, looks like Magretts Ltd tread in one place the rim one width away. There is a reason that the countach went to a p7. More apt was that other tail heavy 70's icon the 930 turbo, it also had wide p7's for good reason. A trx belongs on a 400i a touring car.

The improvement is not marginal, even at 510ths the car just feels so much more planted stable and secure. Since the trx's were such rocks when the change is made the suspension even with shocks set to hardest feels a little soft, so an ideal upgrade would probably be slightly stiffer springs but realsiticaly wheels and tires are all you need. Ferrari stuck with the trx for no good reason, probably f1 sponsorship, after the first year the testarossa went to medern rubber, woner why. The 288 gto had 16's with modern rubber too, even when the 308 had trx's, for good reason, a trx sucks. By the way the chassis can handle it fine.

From where I sit the only reason not to upgrade is $, If you drive the car anything like it was meant to be driven, and I hope you do then this is the cheapest upgrade performance improvement you can make. For car shows and polishing go for the trx's.

 

225/45 fronts
275/45 rears