Have interviews with a few law firms....any pointers?

I think it is a delicate balance between the comfort of what they are used to seeing, with just the slightest eccentricity that distinguishes you - in a good way - from the stereotypical applicant.

The big corporate law firms are always anxious to get into the pockets of those they have not yet invaded. So - if you offer them the chance of making a connection to a client base that they have yet to exploit, then you become a valuable commodity. You have to understand the mentality of the big law firm (sucker born every minute). In any case, you have to be smart, industrious, and willing to put in the effort.

Obviously, if you are a typical applicant who has gone to high school, then college, then law school, and have never had a real job in your life, then this "eccentricity" comes from your family background (connections), otherwise, it comes from the previous employment experiences you have enjoyed. I was a pilot and aviation professional for 15 years before law school.

These organizations are great places to learn how to practice law, but only fit for the most "select" candidates in the long term. I left this environment after about 10 years, and after 10 years of self employment, with my clients as the focus, rather than the bottom line, I am much happier, and I DRIVE MY FERRARI TO WORK EVERYDAY!

Good Luck Guy!

 

Actually I recommend against promoting yourself specifically as a future rainmaker. I took this route for an interviewing season (~30-40 interviews) and had this backfire on me in too many interviews with BigLaw. One late 50's partner from a top whiteshoe NY firm asked me what my 'greatest strength' was, and I responded that it was that I could make rain, because I'm social, a networker, and I have sales and interpersonal experience that makes me unafraid to "ask for the sale" when presented. I can walk into a room and walk out with a pocket full of business cards and people who call me back. He bellowed with laughter and told me, "This firm has been around for *** years. We don't need associates to bring new clients; it's not like we'd go out of business if a first-year couldn't bring a book of business. We need workers." He was more honest than others that they just want grunts. Enlisted men, not officers.

So, I started my own practice right out of school and do exactly what I said I was going to do, and the business is mine. But as far as other advice for you, convince them you really want to live in the city they are at, make yourself interesting but don't reveal too much interest in activities other than law - just enough to be totally boring but not enough for them to say, "why do you want to be a lawyer?! You should do ________" ... I had this happen on at least 5 occasions. I was even out for dinner with a partner interviewer from a hoity-toity firm who told me I wouldn't like it at her firm and that I should start my own like her husband did. At least her firm paid for my veal!

They say they want entrepreneurial thinkers but I think this is BS; I wouldn't go into detail about any business you started. I really think they do not go after leaders and entrepreneurs, both because it scares them as far as their own control and power but also because strong willed leaders have less tolerance to be pooped on. Frankly, many of the classmates I pegged as future leaders didn't go biglaw-style practice but went for consulting, banking, industry and some to gov't positions.

 

My comment was not at all related to rainmaking. My comment was related to background only. Don't assume that the interviewing partner conciously considers you anything but a worker bee, but subconsiously, I'm convinced they are looking for a slightly different mold to distinguish their recent hire from the ordinary top 5% law school bunch.

This may draw some fire - but - there is no way a law school graduate can "hang out a shingle" and do much else than practice legal malpractice on a daily basis for any number of years. Unfortuneately, our system requires no clinical experience for lawyers before they subject the local populace to the misconception that they have a clue what they are doing.

 

Ah I understand your point and agree - they want *just* enough to have a talking blurb about you in meetings, but not so radically different that you don't fall in line.

Well, I suppose I disagree with your first part but only because I have seen people hang a shingle and be fine - with enough clinical and summer experience during school of course. I worked both summers in different firms (the second in a small firm that gave me pretty much my own clients to serve and lots of them), and did two clinics (one transactional, one trial/lit) during school. Of course I'm not putting together multi-billion dollar M&A nor defending Microsoft or GM, but we've been blessed enough to have more intakes than we can handle every weekday... I have to do my drafting and writing at night because we're meeting with prospective clients nearly all day. There are many other success stories from lawyers in the ABA SOLOSEZ listserve, and even Art here did so many years ago.

I would add that having a handful of mentors you can ask questions is huge too. Heck my lawyer friends take more time and fill me in on more about issues when I ask than almost all of the senior lawyers at the firms I worked at.

Yuri - play up the engineering background, which is hot right now, more than the success of your business though IMO. They may ask you, "why don't you want to own your own company, and be at the end of the boardroom table making deals, instead of being one of the lawyers in the middle?" (BTW, my response to that was that I wanted more experience and to earn the position of partner, which would allow me to then help structure large deals for others and people would want to invite me in on business deals because I was a partner at _______. got me a callback at least).

 

I'm not planning on practicing or taking the bar, so I can't give you a whole lot of specific help. However, I've done a lot of interviewing, a lot of panels, a lot of face-to-face transactions. A lot. And there is one thing you need to understand before you can figure out how to conduct yourself: are you an active leader (assertive, commanding), a passive leader (quiet, confident), an active follower (energetic, loyal) or a passive follower (quiet, obedient)? You are one of these types of people, and you must naturally represent your personality or no one will confortably trust you.

For example, if you are a passive leader, but you adopt an active leader facade because everyone says being assertive and aggressive is what bosses want, you won't fool anyone. You simply come across as untrustworthy. When selling anything, remember the 3 Bs:

1. Be yourself
2. Build value
3. Be in control

#1 is key in this situation.

 

That seems like a real waste - even if you don't plan on practicing, law school without any Bar is like med school without boards. Passing it has many advantages, for real estate transactions, securities, etc. I can totally, 100% understand not wanting to practice law but I would still go and get the authority to use what you learned in the system.

Just passing on what a mentor of mine who was a comm RE exec who said no matter what if I went to law school take a bar, even if I didn't want to practice. If I didn't want to practice, I'd take NY, CA, IL or TX and just have it forever.

 

Very true, and I will likely take it for the reasons you mention. I just don't want to. I'm like the guy with the cavity that makes every excuse in the world to not go to the dentist.

 

I had a friend like that in school, swore up and down he wouldn't take the bar, wouldn't practice. Hated his experience in big firms. Instead, went to NSA in DC to work for the gov't (intel?), and within months they him take the bar.

 

You'll never get rich (or be truly happy) working for other people.

Pass the bar exam and get a license.
The same one your boss at the firm your interviewing at will have!

Get a phone and a notebook computer and your in business.

 

I agree. I can spend 80 hours a week making partners/senior associates richer by doing the crap research work/litigation they won't touch. Or I can spend 80 hours a week working for myself, likely not becoming filthy rich, but at least having some control over my life.

The ease at which firms are able to convince my classmates to slave for the rest of their lives amazes me. I'm even more amazed at how little my classmates are willing to think for themselves or question the rationale or logic of decided cases. The law isn't a rulebook that needs to be followed; it's a constantly changing set of guidelines, and they change only when attorneys question the value of current judgements. Why my school (and others, for that matter) doesn't foster a more challenging mindest among my classmates is a mystery. Seems like the administration is concerned not with producing adventurous and defiant attorneys, but rather passive and obedient junior associates. Thanks, US News!

 

The practice of law is what you make it. I have practiced in the first tier of IP law in NY City for the better part of 25 years. Depending on the area of practice- patent is much different substantively, culturally and clientwise than trademark, copyright,than trade secret/departing employee fields- show scholarship and initiative in your area of interest. It is not just a job. And, you can't treat it as such.
Most boutique firms compete for business based on the talent, experience and reputation of their lawyers- they are less "institutional" in almost every respect, from not having evergreen clients that fund them, to not being quite as rigid in the profile of potential associates they will hire. All firms require, if not a top school, than top grades. Smarts should be a given. Poise, a good 'people' sense-- being able to read your interviewer and respond accordingly-- and the right balance between serious and human are important. Someone who can recite their accomplishments- boring and too 'resume driven.' Someone who is too casual- sends the wrong message about how they might carry themselves before a client, an adversary or a judge. It is a tough balance, but it is what you have to do every day to earn a living as a lawyer, whether you are practicing at Cravath or at a small boutique.
These skills- particularly people reading skills can be acquired, but should not be considered 'shmooze' skills. The other quality that makes for a great lawyer is being a great detective. How do you tell someone you have that quality? By listening first.
Good luck. Interesting area of the law, and one that can be practiced at the top level in many places of the world.
The blessing of all of this is that you get to meet smart, interesting people and learn about their businesses, their creative attributes and inventive qualities. Those attributes will also serve you well in presenting a case, writing a brief or letter or simply interviewing a client to learn more about their matter.
I could go on, but you get the drift....
The only postscript I can add is to take the jobs at the outset that give you the best training, exposure and contacts in your field. You really come in knowing little, and the first few years are critical to your professional development.

 

Whart's advise about getting your feet wet and learning on someone else's dime is one approach.

But don't linger too long at one shop.
Get what you need in the way of "skills" then move on...and take as many clients with you when you leave!

Here in Florida its against bar rules to have you sign a non-compete clause as part of your employment agreement.
When I finally left my started firm I opened up across the street from my old employer and took over 400 clients with me.
Remember it all comes down to personal services in the legal business.
Clients will develop a relationship w/you and not the firm.

I left and never looked back.
Now I've got five offices throughout the state.

Law is a business.
Treat it as such or face some truly dire consequences.
When you look at it as simply a profession your doomed to an old model that will leave you feeling exploited by the firm you work for and/or resenting your clients.

Good luck.

 

I'm articling at a criminal defence firm after this final year of law school...however the majority of my school is articling at big Bay Street Toronto firms.

My best buddy who doesn't have the greatest grades and parties with me on a regular basis landed a job at a big firm because he is a top 10 tennis player in the country. His interview essentially consisted of talking about tennis and sports - he got the job.

So, as said be yourself...and remember they already are interested in you because you landed the interview. I find it may come down to whether you are the right fit for them. Research in that sense is key - usually there is a brief write up on the lawyers on their web site so try and find some mutual interests.

It is also a two way street: can you see yourself working and getting along with the interviewers in day to day interactions?