Any 512 owners have experience with Maserati Bora in terms of handling, acceleration, ride and driving feel? They seem pretty similar on paper in many ways but interested in real world driving characteristics from owners or others with good seat time, thanks.
well the countach is the competitor to the boxer, never heard a bora being compared to one before. Never been in a bora but I would highly doubt it would be on par with a boxer with super-car status from the 80's.
I once owned a Bora and a Boxer. I still have the Boxer. The bora really doesnt compare. You cant see anything behind you, and the car isnt fast enough to stay ahead of others. The dash, gauges and switches are weird. I never just wanted to get in the car and just drive the heck out of it.
The Bora is an attractive car and I do believe that Citroen/Maserati made their best effort at supercardom with it. The later 4.9 cars were nicely finished inside and had decent but not shattering power. Motors are good, but water pumps, power assists, and air cond systems have proven weak. But nothing compared to... The hydraulics (an effort to make the car more 'luxo' and less 'sport') can drive people quietly insane and it was THE thing that turned me off. I've had a couple Meraks (both SS and NOT the LM hydraulic nightmares) and one Ghibli, but passed on Boras. Supporters of this goofy high pressure hydraulic system will tell you that I'm a loud-mouthed uncooth American and don't know what I'm talking about (right again!) but there's a reason no one else in the world ever embraced the system and I'm not it. However... They're more rare than Boxers, and some would say it was Maserati's last true effort competing in this realm, so perhaps a decent enough investment if bought right. It's already been said by others with more experience though, that the 'Bora meets Boxer battle' is a mismatch. Since you're asking on an admittedly demented Ferrari site, you'd do wise to find Mr. Francis Mandarano or Ivan Ruiz http://www.thecarnut.com who are solid Maserati supporters. For the money (and I've not watched Bora prices for awhile) I'd imagine a GOOD late Pantera would prove a potentially better value. Just an aside, not giving advice - - your call. Best Wishes regardless.
I owned a Bora and a Pantera. The Bora was a Euro model and had additional hp. I will have to agree on the brakes, but compare the argument to all those arguments (Ferrari models included), where people are in denial. In case no one knows the brakes are based on the Citroen high pressure system, which is nothing more than a proportioning valve for braking. The distance from nothing to complete lock-up is about 1/4-1/2 inch. Saying it takes time to get used to it is an understatement. Seat belts are mandatory at any speed unless you want to launch yourself through the windshield. With all this said it is twice the car of the Pantera. The Pantera has simplicity going for it with a Ford 351 engine. The exterior is attractive, but the interior is a huge disappointment. Once again you will find those who will go ballistic when challenged on this note. I don't have either one now and would not get another. John
You gotta love fchat and the internet in general. HOw else could some dude perched on the remote headlands of N. Calif, get realtime feedback on comparing obscure 70/80's Italian cars? In 3 hours, some very decisive and helpful comments. Thanks all. AHudson, you have Pm
I agree and noted that the Bora interior is nice, and light years beyond a Pantera. The driving experience of mine is terrific though. Very, very different from the Boxer (which oddly enough, I bought in Sugarland TX). I always considered the Bora more of a cruiser-type boulevard car, with the Boxer well up the performance (and price) ladder. The Pantera though - at around 1/3 the price - is a value to be sure. Not everyone's cup of tea (or beer in a wine glass if that analogy works) but may fill the go-fast, perform-well, look-cool conundrum for not a lot of money or headache. If the OP will do a search, he'll find an date-contemporary article that actually compares the Bora to the Pantera. Possibly worth a look if inclined to compare further. What an awesome amount of experience on this board. Pre-internet, how in the world would you have EVER posed this question and actually gotten even ONE answer from someone who owned both? <<<EDIT Now that IS weird. I ended my little soliloquy with the 'pre internet' comment at the same time you were posting yours. Whoa. End of surreal head-slap. Got the PM. Thanks. >>>
so that how you boys do high fives down there in Alabama, bust each other upside da haid? I have not seen that comparo but do have a five car shootout between the boxer, countach, pantera, bora and bmw m1. Very interesting, but the writer was pretty easy on all the models and had a positive timbre w/o any real conclusions.
Maserati had a real chance to make a fantastic car in the late '60s early '70s when it seemed like exotic car makers were reinventing themselves with mid-engined cars. It was the right time, and everyone was getting in on it. Had Maserati made the Bora the fantastic car it could have been, I believe Maserati would still be a major competitor with Ferrari/Lamborghini like used used to be. The Bora was made as a mid-engined GT cruiser which, IMHO, is not what a mid-engined car is all about. I have driven US cars and a Euro car, and they are far easier to drive than their Ferrari/Lamborghini v-12 equivalents, but the performance is not where it should have been. The quirks made it strange, and the lack of excitement compared to Ferrari/Lambo sunk the car. Maserati did all this on purpose because they thought they would be the exception to mid-engined exotics and make their car comfortable, easy to drive, and have decent performance. I suppose the market was just not as interested. Maserati did send two cars to a French dealer called, "Thepenier". They made the two racing Thepenier Bora's. The two cars were very quick and were to be very competive, but upon homologation inspection, Maserati 'fudged' the papers to show they would have 500 Bora's completed by the time it was to compete. Turns out that during the Bora's entire production run, it never made it to 500. Another Maserati bad luck story.
Interesting to read some of the comments on the Bora and Pantera. As for comparison with a Boxer, well the Pantera can stand up to that, but i dont think it is fair to compare the Bora, its a different take on the mid engined concept and a welcome one I think. I have plenty of Boxer and Pantera experience but only limited with the Bora. My impressions are of a car that is beautiful from most angles, but awkward from the rear, great interior and seats, brilliant sounding engine and somewhat soft to drive. As for the hydraulics, it is essentially a very simple system, and devestatingly effective, plus reliable if maintained properly. Adams may not like it but as he says he is American and Citroen were never popular in the US! I have owned several Citroen CX and CX Turbo and the brakes and steering are un*******believably brilliant, As to the interior of the Pantera, true the early cars are a bit of a letdown, but new they were very cheap, the Boxer which cost over three times more in the 70s is not exactly high quality inside. The later Panteras are a different case and i love the interior of my car. Steve
J.S. One of the Thepenier Boras you talk about at the end of your post is currently for sale, but i believe the asking price is 800k Euro, a silver car with some race wins, Steve
That one has been for sale at that price for quite some time. I can't recall if it is the one with wide rear fenders or not...
interesting coach. i loved my bora and it is the one car i wish i still had. the bora is the finest gt ever produced by maserati. performance wise, it is between the 308 and the boxer...it missed the market in that perspective. the finisih and execution of a bora makes the boxer look and feel like a kit car. the maser was that well finished. there were however rust issues to worry about w/ the bora but a well restored car will have that addressed. the interior was incredible and was more like a airplane cocpit than any thing you will experience. the seat were works of art that actually felt pretty good and provided support. the 4.9 motor that mine had was bad azzz!!! what an underworked beast and had chain driven simplicity and reliability. it was sooo much easier to get in and go than the bb and looked like art work on wheels. incidentally, i added 3/4 inch wheel spacers on the rear to better position the rears wheels as in stock config...they were tucked in more than the front. i drove mine every weekend and would love another if i could find a really, really good one.
So did these race cars still have the whole hydraulic system or was it removed for more conventional workings? Do you or Steve have a picture, sounds fascinating. Pete, I just passed on a very nice Bora that I had been working on due to a 512 that called my name. PM me if you want the contact of the dealer who did buy it. John
Sorry-don't want to turn this into a BORA vs Pantera thread but..................................... I owned a euro BORA and had a '71 Pantera at the same time. The BORA def had the Deto beat on the inside-that's where it ended. The multi-functional twist control of the turnsignal is best left untouched as a single application can lead to a non-functional unit. The car felt heavy and awkward in the corners-granted the Pantera has been modified to compensate for these drawbacks. However, that is the beauty of the Pantera-mods do not hurt its value, are relatively cheap to do and can make for a very drivable exotic. The BORA felt as if it would break at any time-hyd could leave you stranded and something as simple as a radiator flush requires acrobatics for the car. The Pantera drives more like a muscle car with the ability to hammer it and not fear for 10's of thousands in repairs-if you can find the parts. BORA's gone-Pantera stays...
There are some great pics of it here (I have no photos and will not show his without permission). This is serial number 117.3000 and it has much more 'finished' looking rear fenders than serial number 117.3001. http://www.maserati.org.au/gallery/MASERATI/RACE_Cars/Bora_GrpIV_gallery.html To my knowledge, the Thepenier Bora's were constructed with no Citroen equipment, and at the track, there wasn't a Daytona that could catch it.... so I am told. As far as BHP is concerned, rumors of around 435bhp seem to be the norm. It differed from a regular Bora engines in many ways, but the most obvious upon opening the engine cover being that it did NOT use DCNF carburetors, but it rather used 50 IDA's instead. There is some great info about the car written by the seller of the car here: http://www.maserati-alfieri.co.uk/alfieri36-BORA-GR4.htm The owner stated he won the 1999 Ferrari historic challenge and that no period Ferrari or Porsche group IV could catch it. Very interseting car with a lot of potential.
Another bit of Maserati history sort of related to the Bora was the merak engine. The Ligier-Maserati team used the Merak engine in a Lemans entry in the mid-seventies with a custom Maserati built 4 valve head. The engine supposedly made 330bhp (3.0 90 degree odd-fire V6). It finished and placed favorably in its' class.
JS, thanks for the pics and links. Stunning car, I wish Maserati had leaned more in that direction. Very sexy design and I bet sound as well.
Great post. I just drove my 74 Pantera that's been 'breathed on' mildly (looks totally stock) through our neighborhoods to pick up my daughter from a Halloween carnival. It captivated the kiddies of all ages as it snaked menacingly and slowly through the throngs. They don't even muster a head fake to my 996tt, but the Pantera brings the goods, thumbs up all around. And I don't think about a stinkin' repair; parts are plentiful, stuff works. The gearbox is just too good. The interiors aren't great, but GT40's weren't too swift either, so I forgive it. Okay, sorry - - others who know Boras can speak up - - had to hijack momentarily. By the way, the silver racing Bora is about as cool as it gets. Lookee - exposed trapezoidal light openings a full 30 years ahead of its time! Really cool photo.
