FIA asks Renault to explain new 'spy' charges

+3

The line forms to the left please...

 

NO, NO, NO - I did not mean what the rogue engineer Mackereth did, I mean what the team management did when they discovered it:

“When we found out in September [2007], we talked with this guy [Mackereth], we started an investigation and immediately suspended the guy and then immediately we informed McLaren and the FIA,” said Briatore, adding that Mackereth would be dismissed.

Big difference - McLaren got caught both on the Ferrari end and their own end of the supply chain; went into denial; and paid the price. From what is now known, these Renault guys reported it themselves.

Sort of like the difference between:

a) welding up a couple Kilos of H yourself into your car frame and trying to smuggle it into the country, and then getting sniffed out by an overachieving drug dog...

b) finding somebody elses stash under your cars glovebox during do-it-yourself maintenance (after you had it a year or so) and turning it in to the cops voluntarily.

But, I have already come to the conclusion that there are probably less die-hard "my team can do no wrong" fans for R or F than there are for McL (on Fchat) right now - which is almost inexplicable to me as this is a Ferrari site.

Almost, except for the fact that apparantly the other team fans have nowhere (else) to go with their rants...

 

Correct me if I am wrong but didn't Ron Dennis immediately inform the FIA when he learned of the e-mails?

You can't be serious, you can't swing a dead cat around here without hitting a Ferrari iconoclast. I have never seen so many apologists as I have on this site.

 

Don't know if you are wrong or not - it all depends on what Ron knew and when he knew it...

But with the cat dead (did you mean Jackie Stewart & Jaguar?), the McL mice seem to be squeaking the loudest just now -

I felt like us Ferrari die-hards showed some gentlemanly restraint over the victories and are ready to move on to driver changes and 2008...

 

Alonso told Dennis about the emails, but Ron thought he was bluffing and didn't buy it.
After qualifying on Saturday at the Hungarian GP Alonso and his manager showed the emails in Spanish to Bernie. They translated to him on the fly into English. Bernie realized the importance of them and passed them on to Ron. Ron called Mosley on Sunday.

So in short: Yes

 

Which Ferrari-diehards are those?? The ones calling for Kimi's head 4 races into the season? The ones who claim they will no longer support Ferrari if they sign Alonso?

I have seen very, very few examples of gentlemanly restraint on these boards, especially amongst those who label themselves diehards...

 

+1

Some still seem to have difficulties spelling Alonso.

 

But I thought being a die-hard was a good thing (provided you are right like Barry Goldwater) or are a battery?

An analogy - from a die-hard Ferrari Fan (and proud enough of it to not be ashamed to say it):

_______

Sometimes I think Dallas Cowboys owner Jerry Jones is a jerk, but I am a fan and was willing to support the team all through the past few years (Quincy Carter, et.al.) and now things are looking up. Competitive sports kind of has a way of sorting itself out sooner or later. SO - on the drivers:

I for one liked Kimi only about as much as Hamilton at the start of the season, but did not call for his head on a platter, I would call him about the equal of FA right now as a matter of fact. So now he has gone up a James point. Massa goes up two points. Lewis Hamilton goes down one point, and FA - I am just waiting until next year - so I would call him no change. And yes, I want Ferrari to win - just like I want the Cowboys to win. I know they cannot win all 16 this year, but 15 and the superbowl would be sufficient.

_______


Finally, to set a proper example of gentlemanly restraint - I will make absolutely no comments on the various recent antics of Dallas Mavericks owner Mark Cuban.

 

I feel the exact same way about Ferrari. My support of the team didn't waver with the signing of Massa nor would it waver with the signing of Alonso. I stuck with the team throughout the lean years of the 1980s and early 1990s and I was thrilled with their success in the last few years even though I am not a particular fan of Schumacher's.

At the same time, I do not turn a blind eye to the team's mis-steps. I am not so blinded that I am a Ferrari sycophant, hence I am able to look at things like the Stepney affair more objectively than some others do. For that I was pilloried as a closet McLaren fan and apologist. My Ferrari supporter credentials were questioned vigorously by some of those whose support of the team is far mroe conditional than my own. Fans like this I have no time for.

A true Tifoso supports the team no matter what and a true Tifoso recognizes that the team is bigger than one man and that support of the team does not confer on my the obligation to support all its actions without question. There are many here who share my view and I am glad to see you understand this.

Now, don't get me started out my beloved Red Sox and Patriots...

 

I think we might be seeing the end of Renault... PitPass has an article by Mike Lawrence and I must say I agree with him. http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_feature_item.php?fes_art_id=33394

 

Blame MAX if it happens the incompetent git.

 

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63877

 

So let me see if I understand this... Renault gets punished the same as McLaren so $100 Million and no constructor points. Since they had the info for 12 months it stretched back to last season. So Ferrari is awarded the WCC for 2006? Maybe Max isn't such a bad guy after all

 

FEATURES
Editorial | Off On F1 | Letters | Race Features
Renault Facing Up To $100m Fine
Saturday 10th November 2007

Having been forced into the barriers at an Indycar race, Al Unser Junior famously said of Nigel Mansell - "What goes around, comes around." Meaning that sooner or later he was going to pay Nigel back.


The same can now be said of Flavio Briatore and his Renault team. At the time of the Stepneygate revelations this summer Flavio said some very angry things directed at McLaren and Mike Coughlan's acquisition of Ferrari data.


Explaining why he should be present at the first World Motor Sport council hearing, very prophetically he said: "This story involves everybody sooner or later and I want to know exactly what is going on because it is part of our job."


After the first hearing in Paris when the FIA's World Motor Sport Council found McLaren guilty of unauthorised possession of Ferrari documents, but failed to punish them because there was insufficient evidence that it had been used - i.e. they could find no Ferrari technology adapted to the McLaren car, Briatore was livid.


However, the WMSC refused to punish the Woking team, claiming there was iinsufficient evidence to suggest they had made use of the information.


"I'm not a judge," he told Autosport when asked what McLaren's punishment should be. But, he added: "Just read the regulations: for intellectual property theft the punishment is exclusion."


Oh, what a difference four floppy disks make.


Though in the second hearing McLaren were fined $100m the FIA still couldn't point to one particular use of Ferrari technology that had been copied. Max Mosley went on to say that this wasn't the point - the point was that Ferrari's rivals had had a good look at their car and this would give them an unfair advantage.


Fast forward to the Renaultgate saga and it turns out that Renault had technical data on the 2006 and the 2007 McLaren, as well as information on fuel tanks, suspension systems and drawings of the car. All supplied on four floppy disks courtesy of a former McLaren engineer.


Further to that it has been revealed that 15 Renault engineers have signed witness statements and admitted to looking at the McLaren data/drawings. So it seems that the McLaren intellectual property (IP) was at least as widely distributed in the Renault team as the Ferrari IP was in the McLaren team, and probably more.


What all this means is that the Renault team will have to perform one of the greatest feats of escapology if they're not to suffer a similar $100m fine. Given that Flavio Briatore is co-owner of QPR football club with Bernie Ecclestone, the FIA will have to be extra careful in how they handle the matter.


Even though the parent company are making profits under Carlos Ghosn, the F1 team are in less of a position to pay it than McLaren-Mercedes team. However Max Mosley's dogged pursuit of the truth for "sporting fairness" purposes has meant that the tariff for such a crime is $100m. And you can't tailor a fine against the ability to pay.


This means that should one of the lesser teams, such as Spyker, Super Aguri, or Toro Rosso be caught with someone else's data, they'll go out of business.


What's more, the fact that Renault had McLaren IP at the end of the 2006 season means that Fernando Alonso's second World Championship finale may have been aided by McLaren technology.


Thanks largely to Alonso's outburst at the Hungarian GP, and his subsequent failure to attend the FIA hearing in Paris, McLaren got hit with an obscene fine.

McLaren decided enough was enough and that if they had to go on trial for industrial espionage, then the people who did it to them should face the music too.


It would be ironic that as a result of Fernando's intervention that the team he wanted to move to should be crippled financially as a consequence, and that his own 2006 World Champion's credentials should be put under scrutiny.


Even now I can see a PF1 forum topic - Michael Schumacher 8 times World Champion...? And all without leaving the comfort of Vufflens le Chateau.


AD

Repost. Sorry

 

McLaren has moved to correct inaccuracies in the leaked spy briefing memo, ahead of the FIA hearing into Renault-gate. Read it here in full.

The FIA has asked us to correct certain factual errors contained in a press briefing given on our behalf by one journalist concerning Renault F1 and we are pleased to do so. The corrections are as follows.

In our briefing, we stated that there were 18 witness statements from Renault employees admitting that they had viewed McLaren confidential information.

To the extent that this implied that 18 different Renault employees admitted viewing McLaren confidential information it was inaccurate. 13 Renault F1 employees provided 18 witness statements and 9 of them have so far admitted they viewed and discussed the confidential technical information belonging to McLaren.

We stated that the confidential information on computer disks was uploaded onto 11 Renault computers.

This is not accurate. Mr Mackereth copied information onto 11 computer disks. The information on these 11 computer disks was uploaded by Renault IT staff in September 2006 onto Renault’s T: drive and then transferred by Mr Mackereth to his personal home directory stored on Renault's network server. A back up copy of the material on Mr Mackereth’s personal directory was made onto an unknown number of Renault’s back up servers/tapes.

Our briefing could have been interpreted as suggesting that the Renault employees who admitted sight of McLaren Confidential Information all viewed it on computer screens.

Only Mr Mackereth and Mr Hardie admit viewing McLaren Confidential Information on Mr Mackereth’s computer. The other seven employees who have admitted seeing McLaren Confidential Information admit seeing it in the form of computer print outs or hard copy documents.

We said that the information on the 11 computer disks taken by Mr Mackereth included 780 individual drawings.

This was an error. The information taken by Mr Mackereth on floppy disks, in hard copy form and by email amounts to 762 pages when printed out. The 11 computer disks included 18 individual technical drawings. Mr Mackereth also admits that he took hard copy drawings of McLaren’s dampers.

We said that the McLaren information amounted to the "entire technical blueprint of the 2006 and 2007 McLaren car".

This requires clarification. The position is that, the McLaren drawings plus the information in a confidential MP4 - 22A Specification document taken by Mr Mackereth constitute a technical definition of the fundamental layout of the 2007 McLaren car and the technical details of its innovative and performance enhancing systems.

We are pleased to assist the FIA in making the above clear in advance of tomorrow's hearing.

 

It is going to be a non issue. I don't think the FIA will punish them at all. Here is why:

The FIA's rationale at the first McLaren hearing was, that they let them off the hook for posession of the Ferrari papers because it couldn't be proven, that the information was used. Only after it became clear (via the emails etc) that the data was used, did the FIA come down with a verdict in the 2nd hearing.

Same thing with Renault: This hearing will determine that the information was in Renault's computers, but not used by the team. Therefore no punishment. Case closed. And Alonso can sign with the team.

 

Great post, Ted. Along the same lines you posted about, I am an F1 fan. I root for BMW, McLaren, Ferrari, Honda, Toyota and others, not in that order. I really like M. Schumacher and I miss him dearly. I really don't like Alonso, but if Ferrari signs him then good luck to them both. I don't particularly like Todt and I especially don't like Luca de Mozzarella, but I really enjoy how much the Ferrari TEAM loves to win and how well they do it. It was suggested by some that I ought to pack my bags and leave this board if I was not prepared to don rosso corsa sunglasses and forgive any transgression Ferrari committed whilst damning the slightest misstep by anyone else. I rather just stick to my own beliefs and opinions and discuss them with the sharp members here who like a good (even if sometimes heated!) debate and ignore the chumps who play the "McLaren lover!" cards.

And as for your "beloved" Pats and Sox... I advise you NOT to wear apparel professing your love in NJ/NYC lest you find your Ferrari missing a few parts (or just missing!) when you next park it. And us Beantowners say that the only TRUE Sox and Pats fans live in Boston You guys have the Yanks and Mets (and back in the day the Dodgers), the Giants and the Jets, and the Rangers and the Islanders. We only do it once for each sport in Boston, but we do it RIGHT

 

Yep!

And it's totally bogus.

Renault will be let off today.

Alonso will announce a short-term deal tomorrow or the next day

McLaren will announce Heiki coming the same or following day

Fisichella will announce his arrival at Farce India the following day

Ralf will announce that F1 is not good enough for his massive head, err, talents the following day and go off into the corner and pout

Then Villeneuve, Hill, Stewart, Mosley, Ecclestone, Mansell and god-knows who else will all toss their 2 cents in like it matters or anyone really cares what they think!

 

You forgot Lauda.

 

I went to the Celtics/76ers game last night in Philly. Since I couldn't find my Celtics jersey, I went with a Patriots jersey and a Red Sox hat...just so there would be no confusion as to where my loyalties lie...

 

That sound like me with motorware stuff, if I like it I buy it irrespective of what team is on it ,thereby covering all the angles when you go watching a bit of each on

 

Andreas,

This is not true: "not used by the team". It is a known/reported fact that the Renault radiators are exact copies of the McLaren, atleast with the 2007 cars. Now nobody please state the fact that just because Renault sncked in 2007 it does not matter ... 'cause that is just childish!.

So if the stupid FIA are going to punish McLaren over knowledge of another team and copying, they need to start punishing every other team ... and I think they should start with Ferrari once they have finished with Renault. Pretty soon every team will have to queue up behind McLaren in the pit order next year and this whole rediculous issue will be even more of a complete joke.

Again please FIA admit you made a mistake and retract McLaren's punishment and lets get on with motorracing ... a sport where cheating does indeed help and why it will continue and infact I am sure every team has a person whose sole role is to obtain as much information from the required teams as possible.
Pete

 

Good points the two cases are similar, but a big difference was it broke mid season whilst the racing was at its height.
Letting the Mc drivers off the hook for providing info was a ploy it kept Bernie happy and kept the watching public happy.

The problem is the FIA make the rules up as they go along, trying to please everyone does not work.

I suspect that freak MAX will be having a nice Renault for Xmas..