Gee Whiz, Looks Like Massa Can Drive W/O TC

But it proves his driving without TC wasn't impaired like many have predicted

 

If you can't figure it out by looking at the facts then I can't explain it to you.

 

Prove? Didn't you remind me, that test times prove nothing because we don't know the parameters blablabla?

But even if we want to get on the slippery slope of looking at test times, I still wouldn't come to your conclusion. True he didn't fall off the deep end and is within range of the rest of the crowd. But we still don't know where he stands in comparison to the 3 drivers that really matter, the ones he was fighting with for the title this year. One of that calibre beat him yesterday, which is why I still believe poles are much less likely for Massa next year.

 

I never said it proves he fastest, only that it proves that he can handle a car without TC. I still believe the times are meaningless.

 

I understand Kovalainen's times were removed as he cut the chicane.

 

Like I said in another thread, the facts prove Massa is fast. He led 2007 in fastest race lap. The debate will go on forever as to Kimi vs Felipe, but statistically, there is no denying Massa is at the top and deserves that credit.

And your comment about him being blown away by someone that hasn't raced in a year doesn't cut the mustard. First, Massa did surpass Schumacher's time in the final day of testing. And second, it is Michael Schumacher we are talking about, he is and always will be way above anyone else in history.

 

We'll all see when they run the next race. What would be ironic is if Mark Webber actually started to make GOOD starts now that there's no TC.

 

It's good to see Ferrari at the top of the sheets even if it is just testing. While I don't think Massa is the greatest to ever drive an F1 car I still think he deserves a bit more credit than some of you give him. I figured after he did so well this season all the Massa-bashing would be in lesser quantities and everyone would at least give him some respect but I guess I was wrong on that prediction.

 

Makes a change from Hamilton bashing.

 

LOL

I find it amazing that the same guys who think Hamilton is simply lucky by being in a frontrunning car also seem to think that Massa is any sort of talent...

 

He tied Kimi for fastest laps. The case can also be made that the Ferrari was the best car on the grid and that Massa's speed was largely the result of that fact. I am still waiting for someone to tell me exactly why having the fastest race lap is in any way indicative of ultimate speed given that Senna only had 19 fastest race laps in his career.

Nevertheless, Massa continued his string of finishing behind his teammate yet again...

 

Yup

 

From Autosport:

"The Ferrari team completed their dominance of the Barcelona test, with Felipe Massa finishing on top of the times on the final day of work.

Massa set a best time of 1:21.044 to just edge Renault's Heikki Kovalainen, who went quickest in the final moments of the session. The Finn's time, however, was deleted after it was found he had cut the final chicane..."

...not bad...not bad at all...
Way to go Massa!

 

Yes, and on that note, we could always downplay any driverchampionship by pointing out the car is obviously a winner. It is pretty easy really: fast cars don't win without capable drivers and capable drivers don't win without fast cars.

And obviously, Ferrari considers Massa to be capable enough to one of the two guys from all the available drivers in the world, to race in their F1 cars. Two seasons hasn't made Ferrari think otherwise, and realistically there is no reason to do so: Massa takes race wins, pole positions and fastest racelaps. He gets the result and it would take a deeply pessimistic view to point out Massa hasn't done as well as he theoretically could have done, since he didn't get the driverschampionship in either 2006 or 2007. Unfortunately we have those people on this board and those people feel the need to vent their view each and every time they feel the slightest bit possible.

Not the sharpest tool in the shed, or whatever that saying is. It is pretty obvious that you need to be a fast driver to begin with, in order to even be capable of setting the fastest lap in the race. The mere fact that Senna 'only' had 19 fastest laps, doesn't take away from that. It just says that his number of fastest laps is remarkebly low for someone of his statue, but it doesn't serve as an argument against Massa's number of fastest laps. The fact that you have to wait for someone to point this out to you says a lot.

Yes, and that is exactly the problem in your deeply flawed reasoning. You downplay Massa's performance for the mere fact he doesn't beat his teammate (allthough he clearly does on isolated incidents, they just don't amount up to a championship for all sorts of reasons). There can only be one winner and this brings the fact that there are 21 drivers who haven't won. Including the likes of Hamilton and Alonso. You set the bar high for Massa, just so you can stay safe and bash Massa left and right. Only under the condition of Massa finishing ahead of his teammate in a championship, you will say something positive (allthough I doubt that very much. Chances are you will point out some irrelevant circumstances just so you can say Massa just got lucky and/or Kimi was not).

I think it is just pathetic and a blatant contradiction to the obvious facts to call a multiple racewinner and polesitter an unworthy driver.

I just wish you and everyone like you, would go ahead and hate in silence. You've made your stupid point and this discussion will never be resolved. I can't for the life if me figure out why you'd want to go on and on about it.

What joy brings Massa-hating and going on and on about on the internet bring to your life? I am actually quite curious as to how these things work. Are you really that bored? Are you really that annoyed that Massa has a nicer job than you? Why would you care, since Massa actually DOES add to the success of your beloved Scuderia? And why would you deny that Massa adds to the success when the facts are so clear?

 

Senna won 5 races in the McLaren in 1993 that had no business running at the front. Prost won a world title in 1986 when the Williams were the class of the field by far.

A world-class driver doesn't need the best car to win.

Many drivers could win in this year's Ferrari, not just Massa. Plenty of mid-level drivers have looked like WDC candidates when driving the Ferrari and then couldn't finish in the top 10 once they left the team. (Irvine? Rubens?). In lesser machinery Massa has looked positively pedestrian, stick him in the Ferrari and some here seriously believe that he has overnight become the next Schumacher?!? Nonsense.

Massa is the team's #2, stated or not, this is the way it is. His job is to help secure the WCC. He failed to do that in 2006 and the only reason he was successful on 2007 is because McLaren was penalized both in Hungary and in the Stepney affair.

Don't tell me he is doing is job because I have yet to see him deliver a WCC as a #2 should. You focus on his occasional successful drive whereas I see an enormously inconsistent driver who might be on pole one weekend and out of the top 10 the next, thanks to some foolish drivers error.

For all of you who think that Ferrari signed him because they think he is a superior talent, I have two words for you: Nicolas Todt.

It serves to point out the irrelevance of the statistic. Senna was indisputably the fastest man in F1 history over 1 lap. If he only got 19 fastest laps in 161 career starts, then there must be more (or more accurately, less) to that statistic than folks here are giving credit for.

I downplay his performance because, in equal equipment, he is consistently beaten by his teammate throughout his entire career. Some here think this guy is WDC material. I think he needs to learn how to beat his teammate before he can think about beating the rest of the grid.

I can think of lots of pole-winning and GP-winning drivers that would hardly be considered front-running drivers.

Unlike some here, I recognize the difference between a great driver and an average driver racing a great car. Winning in a Ferrari is simply not that great an achievement considering how superior that car is to just about every other car on the grid. Had Massa impressed me even the least bit when driving a Sauber, I might think differently of him but the fact of the matter is when Ferrari selected him, he was a driver of mediocre reputation and not a few F1 insiders questioned why the team would waste a seat on a driver of his caliber.

Has he won and earned poles? Sure. But so have Irvine and Rubens. What makes you think that Massa is any different than either of those two drivers? I don't see anything whatsoever that suggests Massa is any special talent but I see many, many things that suggest to me he is not. A superior talent is always on it and is always consistent, Massa is anything but. you never know which Massa will show up at a race. Will he be quick or will he be fighting for 6th place? You never know. That is clearly NOT the mark of a championship-quality driver. Massa is occupying a seat that other drivers in F1 are more deserving of and would achieve more in. Put JB in that seat and he will make Massa look like the backmarker that he is.

He adds success?!? He cost the team the WCC in 2006 and, except for McLaren's penalties, he would have cost them the WCC in 2007 too. Let me know when he adds success because I am still waiting.

What makes you think that? I out-earned him last year. I love what I do and I am well rewarded for it. I don't begrudge him his job as a Grand Prix driver, I race myself and I know I have reached the limits of my abilities as a club racer. That's fine with me. I would take the career potential of my profession over that of an f1 driver. Just ask Scott Speed about career longevity in that sport. I know guys in my industry who earn more in a year than Schumacher has accumulated in his lifetime. I wouldn't trade my job for anyone's, including Massa.

Sounds to me like you are the one jealous of him.

 

At this point the only thing the tests conclusively show is that MS still has it after a year off.

 

Totally agree.

Every other driver on the grid would be able to win in that Ferrari given a bit of luck. The car is fast and the car is 95% of the performance.

I think it is great that Massa has such support, but like Andreas support for Irvine, you need to hold on to reality a heck of a lot more. Andreas liked Irvine and thought a lot higher of him as a driver than probably anybody else on this site, but he did not go on about him like he was the next Senna, Prost, Lauda and MS.

So yeah lets be Massa fans, fine, but don't go nuts about his abilities.
Pete

 

I doubt that validity of his test myself. How much fuel was he running with?

MS would have only agreed to do this test to show Luca he is still the man, and to do this he surely would have run with the car setup for speed not consistency and not for reliability tests, etc.

Again NOTHING, and I mean ABSOLUTELY nothing can be gained from any times turned on any test, unless you are part of the team and know the full setup consequences, etc.
Pete

 

You have to be realistic over the abilities of your favorite driver. In Kimi I got lucky that a) he has the ultra cool personality from Irvine and b) the driving talent and c) he even sits in the car of my favorite team. Doesn't happy very often.

As much as I like/d Irvine, I knew that he wasn't WDC material. 1999 was a rare chance and I can see Massa clinching a title like that as well, but not under normal circumstances where he faces Alonso, Kimi and Hamilton in top cars. BTW I don't think Massa is bad at all, he did very well in 07, but not on a consistent enough basis to nail the title. He was clearly faster than Kimi in the first half of 07, but now that Kimi got used to the Bridgestones and the team, it will be tough for Massa to beat him. Add the lack of TC to that and I doubt we'll see as many Massa poles next year. I still don't think he is great at passing, so the top level of the podium might be a rare opportunity. I said after Turkey, that it might have been the last victory of his career. That could still be the case.

BTW: As a fan I don't need my fav driver to win many races or the title (although it is fun if that happens). It didn't really bother me, that Irvine wasn't WDC material. Until 1999 when he actually had a good chance. It is very painful to see such a chance slip through your fingers because you know it won't happen again.

 

Very reasonable post.. well stated opinion.

 

Could this stop the endless debate?

 

Irvine has never won a pole, he really sucked.

Anyway I feel you're being a little bit too hard on Massa. OK he sucked before being in a Ferrari, he was dominated by MS last year, but this year Kimi hasn't outshined him at all. I know what everyone says, "Kimi was getting used to the Bridgestones, the car, the team.." it may be true, but Kimi didn't outpace Massa in the second half of the year. Even in the second half of the year Kimi didn't outshine Massa, with the exception of Magny-Cours. The turning point for Massa was when he had a DNF in Monza. Which led to the team appointing Kimi as their #1. I really truly believe that if Kimi had had that DNF in Monza instead of Massa, then Massa would be appointed #1.

A lot of people have been saying Massa has improved, and I think they're right. That doesn't mean he's going to over take other drivers in terms of skills, but he has improved a lot, at least from last year. I think of the Ferrari drivers as the natural born talent VS the hard worker. Just like at school, you see some kids are naturally intelligent and other kids have to study their ass off to keep up. Massa goes to all the testing sessions, Kimi can't be ****ed. Massa doesn't have a huge ego and is willing and eager to take advice from MS. He's got the right attitude.

I honestly believe that Kimi and Massa are equal when driving for Ferrari. Whether or not they are equal in other cars doesn't really matter. Someone posted a video of the testing session at Catalunya. The start of it had an interview with MS, someone asked Michael
"Who will be the WDC next year".
Michael first towed the party line as long as its a Ferrari driving waffle waffle waffle...
"This year Kimi, next year maybe Felipe"

With Michael on his side, how can Massa fail?

 

+1 Excellent post IMHO

 

I don't buy the : it took a half a year to get adjusted to the Team/tires/car/color of my underwear/etc. argument.
Kimi should could would change his style on a lap per lap basis depending on track conditions. All pros had better.
There was something else going on and I feel it may have been an attitude problem.
If these guys cant handle a lack of traction control then its time to look at Taxi driving for a living.
BTW Massa has years of high HP non-traction controlled car experiance under his belt.
Kimi never had it.

 

Glad for you and Kimi winning the dc in such a spectacular fashion was almost too good 2 be true.


>As much as I like/d Irvine, I knew that he wasn't WDC material. 1999 was a rare chance and I can see Massa clinching a >title like that as well, but not under normal circumstances where he faces Alonso, Kimi and Hamilton in top cars.

As I recall you don't think Kimi's chances are that certain either, which
I can understand considering 07/the competition he faces.


>BTW I don't think Massa is bad at all, he did very well in 07, but not on a consistent enough basis to nail the title.

Was anyone? LH - ok - until he went into orbit.
Kimi wasn't consistent enough to 'nail' it.
Between him and Massa they were sufficiently consistent
and fortunate that McL imploded, so that Kimi took the title.
The team work was exemplary.


>He was clearly faster than Kimi in the first half of 07, but now that Kimi got used to the Bridgestones
>and the team, it will be tough for Massa to beat him.

I'm not convinced that Kimi sudddenly got used to the tires after Monza,
and honestly I didn't see that much diff in the second half besides reliability/team mistakes.
They were trading places through out.

personality tips the scale - this way/that way - depends where you're coming from.