F360 clutch thread.

Davehelms,

When writing my reply, I didn’t realize there were two DH’s on this board; I was referring to D Handa.

I couldn’t agree with your statement more, I’m working my way through one now which is a total mess, and has been primarily serviced by a 30 year Ferrari mechanic, now it could be the prior owner didn’t have the money to properly repair the car, and the mechanic did the best he could given the customer’s limitation, I do not know for sure and it’s not prudent to point fingers.

When discussing the clutch / flywheel /Kevlar, I was primarily referring to the 6 speed manual transmissions, which are much less complex, and do not require a computer to diagnosis. Kevlar can solve the heat, warping and slipping issues associated with these types of coupling problems, as long as both friction surfaces are properly prepared. Organic clutch material with the impregnated copper bits and owners who “dump” the clutch are the large majority of the 6 speed burnt clutch warped flywheel occurrences. Every one of these problems has an engineered solution, I for one am not convinced Ferrari has all the answers, and on more then one occasion Ferrari has allowed the customer to beta test their under engineered components in lieu of profits, i.e. 355 DM Flywheel; Ferrari’s solution is to add more grease when it starts to rattle and hopefully it will last until the warrantee expires and liability then transfers to the customer.

The F1 systems are a completely different critter, one where you are much more schooled than I, so no comment here. I am not aware of the issues with these systems.

My goal and interest is to noodle through some of these engineering problems out of passion for the marquee and come up with a better solution to the problem rather than simply replace with a Ferrari approved component and procedure. I can tell you it’s certainly not the least expensive approach, and not done to “Save” money, at least in my case. If these problems were that simple to solve, I hope Ferrari would have spent a little more time and money to bring these cars to 98% out of respect for their customer base.

 

Wow! Reading through this was like watching the US congress in action!
Lots of shouting, stomping feet, guys walking out, and in the end no resolution on anything!
What a great thread.

 

good as ever

 

Prospeked,
The examples I gave were directly related to a car from the east coast and a car from the midwest of the US. They were specific examples of problems encountered in this business. I do not have any need to pass judgment on someone I do not know or have any knowledge of. We have plenty of examples to choose from right here in the states. Read all the posts about the F1 cars and how terrible they are to maintain and service and you will se where the source of frustration comes from. I would take a 355 F1 system over a 360 F1 any day but if you read the posts related to the 355 they are horrible. Nope, they have just been hacked.
Change your profile to tech in training, be open and honest and help will flow from everywhere, including myself. My problem in this thread was not with you. I do have problems with folks stating facts that are not true. Be careful not to fall into that again and you will be far better for it in the end. When you ask a question in this market you will get 3 totally different answers and it is up to you alone to choose who to believe.


jh355

That is exactly how I took your post. I figured you were working on a 6 spd and I have no problem with doing exactly what you are working on. Any update to these cars that increases the longevity and reliabilty is a plus. The Kevlar clutch is no exception when used in the proper application. I can say I have used one in a SWB race car as well but was very disappointed with the results and converted it back to F&S. So many things must be looked at when modifying things like clutches. Many of the Kevlar units are solid plate type and transfer terrible shock loads to drivetrain parts not designed to take the hit of a non-sprung disc.
The Ferrari engineers designed a street car that has a planned cycle life. They are in the business to sell parts as well as cars. When ever we can come up with a better mouse trap, by all means build it.
The example I spoke about was with an F1 system car and a Kevlar clutch, where I was helping another shop diag. the problem. They gave away upwards of 3 days of labor trying to figure it out.

 

Hahaha... "They say you can't machine the flywheel, so I just sanded it and put it back in."

I apologize sincerely, you're not a hack. I could tell the technicians at my local gas station that my flywheel could not be machined, and THEY would know to replace it, although the highest end car they work on is probably a minivan. Why don't you just get ****ed, don't touch a $175,000+ car if you don't know how to repair it. You say things such as "why do some clutches fail and others don't when you do the same thing", then you expect me to respect your automotive knowledge? Automotive repair is not supposed to be a 50/50 chance, it's a guarantee to the customer that their car will be repaired, especially with something such as a Ferrari. I'm done arguing, I've had my say and now you can have yours. Say what you like about me, but I only speak the truth. Good day.

 

Dave, that is one of the funniest lines I have read in a while.

I hope that all is well with you and yours.

Dale

 

RD, Brian and Phil FerrariFixer have all left this site or been banned.

 

Did you really say this to attact Brian?

 

It’s absolutely amazing that someone as helpful as Rifledriver could be driven away by someone as useless as ernie but still be allowed to soil this site with his drivel. To this day ernie continues to slither around trying to compensate for his colossal blunder and hopes everyone will forget. Unfortunately, people of limited intellectual means are often further burdened with a bloated ego and are unable to comprehend their own irrelevance. We can only hope that Rifledriver (and perhaps some others like him) will realize that irrelevance and return one day to help us enjoy and care for our Ferraris.

 

All I can say is if you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen. (not directed at you specifically Goth).

In reality, Brian owes no one any information here. Should he choose to no longer help all of you owners when you have a question, I am sure there would be many people who would regret that. The fact that he knows the flywheel can be machined from memory and posts so to help is information in itself. To ask him to give you the specs is not unreasonable, but since he would have to look them up instead of just relying on memory, you can't possibly feel he is obligated to do so? Last time I checked he was not being paid by F-chat to offer this advice, and if it comes with a healthy dose of sarcasm or even some perceived rudeness, then so be it. If you do not want to be on the receiving end of it, don't ask him a question or expect advice. His knowledge, his rules. You can surely be treated rudely at your local Ferrari dealer to the tune of $100+/hour if you prefer (although I am sure there are many dealers that will kiss your ass for that sum as well, so if that's your cup of tea, so be it. I do not know if I have ever asked Brian a direct question, but I have gained a lot even before I was ever in the market by reading his posts. I for one, appreciate that he does answer many questions and shares information that might not be available elsewhere. The rudeness I feel Ernie gave Brian was the real crime here in my opinion. I do not know Ernie, and it's possible he is a great guy with good info on the forum, but all I can go by is this one thread. I have not read any post below the one I quoted at this point, but I am sure I am not alone in my feelings. If I am wrong about that, I better reconsider my purchase of an F-car, since I would be a fish out of water to associate with people who could only see Brian as the bad guy and Ernie (again in this thread only) as the one who was wronged.

 

Well, I know this thread has taken a turn from the original post, but I had a quick question before I call the dealer about my 360. I just purchased the car about 1.5 weeks ago, and am noticing that on take off the clutch seems to take quite awhile to engage now (I have a F1 Model). However once it is engaged the clutch works great, in any gear and wont slip or cause any grief under any conditions. Is there a way for the dealer to electronically adjust the engagement point, or manually? Or is this a sign of the clutch starting to go? The car has 35kmi on it, and the clutch was last replaced at 27kmi.

 

glad to see that even a "ferrarichat" forum gets hi-jacked just like every other forum in the world. being a newbie myself i got as far as the 2nd page and just got bored. so heres my reply to the problem

i work as a tech for a ferrari/maser dealership and have done countless amounts of these clutches. the taper on the flywheel should be no more than 0.1mm for F1 system and 0.15mm for manual box. once replaced, the clutch should be driven on gently for the first approx 500 miles. people may be aware that there has been a mass abundant of these flywheels made with excessive tolerances and this was giving ferrari a real headache. dealerships have been fitting them and they're just wearing to the outside of the friction plate and leading to premature overheating and excessive slip on gear change/accleration. parts warranty have had to replace clutch and flywheel and pay for labour. you are currently not able to get a new flywheel over the counter (altough old stock will probably still be sold - BUT THESE SHOULD ALSO BE MEASURED).

the release bearing seals are usually only replaced if leaking or if replacing complete bearing.

hope this helps.

 

FERRARI FACT:....Flywheel cannot be machined. if it is worn or damaged it MUST be replaced. The taper in the flywheel surface is there to aid in the clutch let-off and the clutch disc is designed to work in this way. If the taper is machined out, the clutch will prematurly wear out. not to mention the setup height of the clutch pack will change,thus changing the clutch position and throwing off the clutch readings from the clutch position sensor.

You may get away with machining on a manual control gearbox, but the clutch disc will still prematurly wear out.

the readings in the manual are a tolerance for replacement, not for machining.

ALWAYS REPLACE THE CLUTCH SEALS (you are already there and cheap enough to do)


best regards, Jim

 

Interesting thread. Let's hope Brian does decide to resurface (no pun intended) at some point. He's a good guy with a lot of great info and I for one miss reading his posts on this forum.

Anyway, I'll toss my 2 cents in here about the 360 clutch, for what it's worth.

I have a 2001 360 6 speed manual and will be doing a clutch replacement myself in the next year or so. I'm currently looking into using a Tilton carbon/carbon clutch instead of the factory parts. Not that there is anything inherently wrong Ferrari's setup, but I think a carbon clutch assembly will provide longer life.

The Tilton setup that I'm looking into will require a new flywheel, clutch assembly and pressure plate. I plan to have it designed to work in conjunction with the factory T/O bearing if possible. I have only done limited research at this point, but have spoken to Tilton about it. From what I understand, it uses a multi disc carbon fiber setup, which distributes the fiction/load across 3 carbon clutch discs. It does require a custom flywheel, since the flywheel also has a carbon face on it, which makes contact with the forward most carbon clutch disc in the pack. I believe (assume) the pressure plate also has a carbon face on it as well. Again, I've only done limited research on this project thus far.

Anyway, my guess is that the flywheel would be designed such that it will accept (or duplicate) the Ferrari factory toothed wheel part (the one which functions in conjunction with the RPM sensor in order to determine the engine RPM's via induction). With regard to the pressure plate, I presume it will be designed to accept (or duplicate) the factory ring gear that normally bolts to the factory pressure plate with three (later updated to six) bolts.

As to the question of whether the factory flywheel can be machined, it should be pointed out that the Ferrari's work shop manual does make a brief mention of "grinding the flywheel if required" (while sticking to prescribed values) - on page 26 / section D. At the same time, I have also heard (from Ferrari North America) that the factory flywheel has a slight bevel to the surface and thus cannot be machined like a normal flywheel. I don't know the answer either way.

In another thread, I did point out that in the manual (where it shows half of a cut-away of the flywheel/pressure plate assembly), it does appear to be showing an angle to the flywheel surface where it mates to the clutch disc.

Again, at the moment, with regard to the flywheel, I don't really know for sure either way. However, my friend Bill (brokenarrow) has graciously sent me the spare parts from his 360 (which just had a clutch job done). I have already received the clutch disc, T/O bearing and pressure plate + ring gear. In the next day or two, I should also be receiving the flywheel (and I hope, the associated toothed wheel). Once those additional parts arrive, I'll be happy to measure the flywheel surface and report back any findings with regard to whether or not the flywheel appears to have a bevel or whether it's perfectly flat, etc.

On the subject of sanding down the surface of the flywheel with sand paper, while it's probably not the best method to use on your exotic car, it's also not that far from deglazing a cylinder wall vs. boring the cylinder. Sure, it's not as good as a re-bored cylinder, but it's better than nothing and does serve a purpose. At the same time, if you have gone through the trouble of pulling the gear box on your 360, it makes sense to put new parts in (or machine the parts back to new) - especially when dealing with a $150K Ferrari. If it's a Datsun or Honda and you are just replacing a fried clutch disc, then yeah, maybe sand off the flywheel with some 300 or 600 grit in order to break the glaze and then hope for the best

Anyway, once the flywheel that Bill has sent arrives, I'll be happy to take a look at it and report back. And, of course, when I get around to replacing the clutch in my car with the Tilton setup, I'll be happy to provide a full write-up with photos, etc.

Ray

 

Ray,

I have the same car will be interesting to see how you go on. Then if I'am feeling brave may try it myself..

 

Well... the 360 flywheel that Brokenarrow sent me arrived today. Many thanks to Brokenarrow for taking the trouble of sending the parts. I took a quick look at the flywheel and I sure don't see anything that would suggest a bevel being present on the surface(s) where the clutch disc rides.

I took a flat piece of flat bar stock and laid it across the surface on one side and extended it over to the other. If there was any angle on the surfaces, it should be clearly evident. However, from what I can see, the bar sits perfectly flat across both surfaces.

So, if there is some very slight angle (which I certainly do not see), it couldn't make much difference. So I think Brian Crall is correct when he says the flywheel is perfectly flat and can be resurfaced/machined no problem.

Ray

 

I wanted to update everyone on my research involving my 360 clutch project. As mentioned above, brokenarrow has been nice enough to send his old 360 flywheel and clutch parts to me. This has been very helpful and has allowed me to start discussing this project more with one of the engineers over at Tilton.

In speaking with Tilton today, I found out a lot more about their 7.25 carbon/carbon clutch setup. The main issues right now relate to duplicating (or perhaps using) the factory flywheel with its toothed wheel assembly which is used to trigger the RPM sensor in the gearbox housing. The second issue is where the starter ring gear sits in relation to the overall clutch/pressure plate assembly. I'm currently waiting to hear back from Tilton with regard to how this would be handled.

In search over Ferrarichat.com, I have also spoken to Mark, who runs this same 7.25 carbon/carbon clutch on his Supercharged ~500HP 308. In reading over his posting (and e-mailing with him), I noticed he retained the factory flywheel on his car. He commented that this was done in an effort to keep the mass of the assembly up, since this helps with pulling away from a stop more smoothly. On the race track, a lighter weight flywheel is nice, since it allows the motor to rev faster, but on the street, a heavier flywheel generally works out better, since it makes normal stop/go driving easier. I have always held this same view myself (since my Datsun 510 days) and so on this project, I will also be keeping the weight as close to stock as possible (at least with regard to the flywheel side of things). Whether this means modifying a stock Ferrari flywheel or asking Tilton to build a heavy custom flywheel, I don't know yet (still waiting to hear back).

The other issue is the placement of the starter ring gear, although I don't believe this should be as big an issue. We'll see though. In the 360, Ferrari uses a 3 (and later, 6) bolt starter ring, which bolts to the top of the factory pressure plate. In order to use a setup from Tilton, this will mean that Tilton's pressure plate will have to either accept or include a starter ring gear also.

In researching the Tilton 7.25 carbon/carbon clutch on Google, it appears that it's a good choice for the street. A number of people out there have good things to say about the carbon/carbon clutch - at least from what I've read. The impression I got from Tilton was that the clutch disc assembly could provide maybe around 50K miles on the street if not abused. If it's able to stand up to constant abuse on the race track, I would think it could handle street use. However, with that said, most of the wear on a clutch comes from starting and stopping, not racing on the track. In other words, one race might put less wear on the clutch discs than a stop/go trip taking my step daughter to school in the morning

The carbon clutch disc(s) do have a collective wear rating of .150 of an inch - Ferrari's factory (single disc) clutch has .032 by comparison. However, during this overall wear range (as it were), Tilton's clutch needs to be checked/serviced at intervals of between .030 and .050 wear. Once this amount of wear has been experienced, then you must pull the clutch and install different plates that compensate for the wearing out of the carbon discs. My understanding is that the clutch setup is supplied with 2 or 3 plates that are marked with their thickness and are to be swapped in as the clutch wears through its .150 total life span. So, that means over the .150" wear range, you are looking at perhaps 3 to 5 inspections, which may require swapping in a different thickness plate/spring thing (I'm not 100% clear on what it looks like, but I think it's a plate affair). Anyway, so assuming the clutch lasts 50K miles, you are talking about dropping the gearbox every 10K to 15K miles or so.

At first, this seemed like a deal breaker, but the more I think about it, the more I think it might be worth while. For one, the Ferrari factory clutch/pressure plate/flywheel seems to only last about 15K miles on the 360. So, if you drive your car (as I do) and put miles on it, you are still faced with having to replace "some" clutch (whether it's a factory clutch or something else) about every 15K miles or so. The benefit on the Tilton clutch, however, is that no replacement parts are needed - you simply change to the thicker plates already provided (granted, the cost of the package is more like $5K, compared to perhaps less than $2K for Ferrari parts). However, if you do wear through the full .150" rating on the Tilton clutch discs, you don't have to replace the entire package - instead, you can send the clutch back to Tilton for a rebuild, which (I assume) costs less than an entire new setup.

Additionally, if you baby the clutch (which I do - probably to the extreme of babying it), I don't think it would be impossible to get 20K or perhaps even 25K between inspections and/or plate swaps. Additionally, since the clutch/pressure plate Tilton provides may have clamping pressure up into the 800 to 1000 ft lbs plus range, even if the clutch is only operating at 3/4 or 2/3 of its full force, it still would very likely be delivering plenty of clamping pressure.

There is also the issue of the clutch pedal on the factory setup going away as the factory clutch wears. In my other posts, I have theorized that this is due to the fingers of the pressure plate over extending (in the relaxed position) due to clutch disc wear, which then results in those fingers being pulled back into a vertical plane at high RPM's. Whatever the case, it's very annoying to shift at 8K+ RPM's and have the pedal feel like it's not there. With the Tilton clutch, I doubt very much if this same symptom would be present during the life of the clutch. As such, part of the issue becomes how the clutch system operates as it wears, not just how long it takes to wear. For me, even if it requires more maintenance along the way, I would prefer to have a clutch that operates 100% the entire time, as opposed to one where the profile of its operation degrades and/or changes as the clutch disc wears out.

Overall, the Tilton package seems like a very attractive upgrade. Not that the Ferrari OEM clutch/pressure plate is not good also. However, I think - if you are willing to stay on top of the Tilton clutch and/or you are not opposed to swapping out the plate if needed - then the Tilton clutch may provide a more reliable and better performing clutch setup over the life of the clutch. Additionally, since the clutch is designed to handle much more horse power than a stock (or even slightly modified) 360 is producing, I believe it's reasonable to think that the reliability of the clutch would be very good on the street.

Anyway, that's my current thinking on the subject at the moment. As mentioned, I'm waiting to hear back from Tilton with regard to some of the questions outlined above. That may or may not change things. For now, I'm leaning towards the Tilton clutch as a possible option, but may also investigate AP Racing's clutch, as well.

Any/all comments welcome.

Ray

 

Brian Crall never said that the flywheel was perfectly flat. He only said that it can be machined and to look at the manual for the specifications. The taper is very small, less than .003" difference from the outside to the inside edge, are you sure that yours is flat? Is it brand new?

 

In this thread, he does mention they are flat (see msg #11 where he says "They are flat").

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=149344

However, if the bevel represents only .003 of an inch height difference over a span of 2.00 inches (the width of the surface between the inner and outer edges), then I have a hard time seeing what that small of a bevel would accomplish. I also can't see how milling it out of existence would make much difference either (as Brian also points out). No matter how you slice it, that's pretty flat

On the flywheel I have here, I did set a flat bar across one surface and extend it over to the other (a total span of 8.25 inches). If the bevel on one side changes .003" over 2.00 inches, then the total change in height should be roughly .012" across 4 times that. However, when holding the bar perfectly flat against one surface, the tip of the bar comes exactly flush with the opposite edge. I can't see .012 of a difference, but then again, if things warped, it could easily throw that small of an angle out of whack.

However, if I have time, I will see if I can rig up a dial indicator and check also, since the bar method isn't super accurate and could be prone to errors. Here are some photos using the bar trick. From what I can see, it's pretty flat, but again, if the change is only .003 of an inch across a 2.00 distance, that is a very small bevel indeed.

In Ferrari's gearbox manual, it does show the distance (bevel change) at the inner edge of "0.07mm +/- 0.03" mm. That translates into 0.00275 inches (i.e. ~ .003 as you mention). That also falls in line with the angle reading they are showing in the manual for the bevel as well. They show an angle of .04 to .11 degrees, which if applied to 2.00 inches, works out to the height difference of ~ .003 between the inner and outer edges.

So for me, it breaks down like this:

1. I agree the manual is showing a bevel on the surface of the flywheel and showing the angle, etc.
2. On the flywheel I have here, any angle is so subtle I can't see it without breaking out a dial indicator, etc.
3. I don't see how surfacing off .003 of an inch on the flywheel could negatively affect much
4. Ferrari knows more about clutches and flywheels than I do

Ray
Image Unavailable, Please Login
Image Unavailable, Please Login
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

Well, Brian know's his stuff. If he says that they are flat, then they are flat. The fact that yours is flat only reinforces this. It's good to know as it makes resurfacing much easier. It looks like the Ferrari spec is a limit for warpage rather than the initial blueprint.

 

Yeah, I can't really tell either way.

I am not sure if the manual is showing a limit for warping (i.e. it can be up to .003" out of flat) or if they are showing that it has a bevel of .003 on the surface from the factory. If Brian is correct, then the manual appears to be showing that the acceptable "out of flat" tolerance is .07mm +/- .03mm. It seems to me that if there was a bevel from the factory, it would be clearly noted some place or pointed out. FNA has said there is a bevel, but I don't know if that jives with the actual parts or if they are also confused by how the manual is laid out. At the same time, the manual shows a degree range of .04 to .11. If the factory part is flat, you'd think they would show a degree range of .00 to .11 or something. I don't know either way. But like you say, if Brian says they are flat off the shelf, then I tend to believe they are flat

At the end of the day, if there is a bevel to the factory new part, it's very slight. Even if you surfaced the flywheel and removed the ~.003 bevel, I frankly can't see how it would make any difference to the operation of the clutch. But again, Ferrari doesn't win F1 for lack of high tech tricks either.

At this point, I can't say either way. All I can do is relate what I have been told by FNA (that there is a bevel) and what I can see here with the manual (that it's confusing as to what it's showing). If I have time later today, I'll try to take a more accurate reading of the flywheel that brokenarrow sent.

Ray