308 Handling

Remember, a lot of the early 308s had 14" or 390 metric wheels. The metrics had TRX tires on them, which to me are like truck tires. I'd bet that a 308 with 16" wheels and modern, high performance tires on them would do a lot better than those early tests showed. I know from my own experience, putting bigger wheels and good tires on completely changed the way the car handled, same was true with my old Mondial that came with the TRX tires.

 

Didn't the Edmunds test 308 outhandle the Subaru WRX? I believe the WRX is held in pretty high regard in the handling dept.

 

One thing to consider is that a skidpad rating is not all that good handling is about. There are lots of cars with only "descent" skidpad numbers, but have great speed through a slalom, (which is a more overall dynamic test of handling than skidpad alone) and are considered "great handling" cars.
Another is to remember that it took cars in general, (even so-called supercars) quite awhile to get above the mid 80's for a skidpad G number. I remember when it was big news that the 84 corvette, with the then-new Goodyear Gatorbacks, reached the magical .90 G on the skidpad.

 

I seem to recall someone on here who was tracking thier 308 and pulling over 1G with lowered suspension, wider tires and wheels, offsets, etc., on street tires? Back in its day the 308 had among the very highest slalom speeds, among the best brakes then tested, and was among some of the best cars in terms of acceleration. While the 944 could beat it in many areas, it almost always lost out to the 308 because the 308 was so good overall, and so much fun. As one journalist put it, the 308 doesnt do anything perfectly, but it does EVERYTHING well. Even the gated shifter. While some would carp how a Honda had better shifting, they were usually people who didnt know how to drive a Ferrari. Once you know how to drive it it shifts like butter, and you wouldnt ever want a Honda type shifter.

 

I remember that, too. Directional tires were hot news back then.

+1.

I'm sure you could get there with modern wheels/tires and also going over that 25+ year old suspension to make sure everything is still tight and the bushings are still serviceable.

That said, on curvy country roads I think a 308 with proper tires and a well-maintained suspension would be extremely entertaining.

 

My 85' with OEM 16" wheels and Goodyear F1 tires, is amazing. I don't race it but it feels like a go-cart on Colorado's winding mountain roads , extremely fun !

 

Plus, if you "modernize" the suspension with some poly bushings and a set of modern adjustable coil-over shocks, you'll have even greater improvement in the handling department. Throw in a brake upgrade, and now you're really looking at some good handling for 25 to 30 y.o. automotive technology.

 

"In reality, the Ferrari kicked the minivan's ass in every test. Twenty-three years is a long time and, yes, the van benefits supremely from modern advances, but it still ain't no Ferrari on the track. In 1984, this 308 really must have been something.

The biggest ass-kickin' came in the handling tests, where the Ferrari proved its pedigree by slithering through the slalom at 68.6 mph, almost 1 mph faster than the 2008 Subaru WRX and far better than any minivan we've ever tested. The story was similar around the skid pad, where the Ferrari's modern Goodyear Eagle F1 tires yanked it around at 0.91g. The Sedona squealed its way to 0.72g."

 

The skip pad is all about the tires and not much else. It's interesting, but not a very good indicator of handling.

 

Skidpad with a 308? I bet they go round counter-clockwise, or have the sump-baffles revised, otherwise it may be a short-lived experience!

That said, I have yet to find a car as everyday-friendly as a 308 combining that with the same fun-factor. It's a blast!

I should actually see what mine does on a slalom, or a skidpad. The 3-piece Automotive rims with 16" Bridgestones do perform well, and the offset in the back is somewhat greater than stock, resulting in a (guess) 2" wider track.

And who wants a Subaru anyway?

Happy motoring,

Jack V.

 

Nobody WANTS a Subaru, you settle for a Subaru because F40s and SWB 250s are so freaking expensive.

(OK, that's not true, I'd love both a Subaru 360 and an STi. In fact - prepare for Fchat sacrelege(sp?) - I think I'd rather have a really nice Subaru 360 to any other manufacturer's 360. This is the 3X8 forum, right?)

 

All you guys.........

As much as I love 308's and 328's, they can't hold a candle to modern cars in any objective way. Take them to a track with more modern makes of other cars and you will quickly find out how far technology has come. A couple of years ago, one of my friends with his QV at a track event was mad at me because I lapped him twice in a 30 minute session with my STI. This was a twisty 1.5 mile track where power was not so important. When I ran my 328 on the track with him, we were close to even. A WRX is not an STI, but it's not that far off. If you check contemprary road tests for these cars, you will find slalom speeds in the low 60's and skidpad #'s in low .8's. Modern tires help some, but not that much. What really lets these cars down is body roll, lot's of it.

This is not to say they aren't fun. I still hugely enjoy my 328 and it has the ability to fool people into thinking they are going much faster than reality. The balance is great, the steering very communicative, a true driver's car. Overall, it has a great chassis and I have seen modified 308's that could just eat up tracks, mostly with just stiffer shocks and springs plus some bracing on the shock towers.

Dave

 

I think my stock 1976 GTB did pretty well at Pocono. I had all suspension bushings replaced with OEM bushings in 2004. Those are Michelin XWX 205X70 VR14s on stock wide wheels. You were in a different group, Steve. I just held up this Carrera and F40 on the road course.

It should do better next year with Goodyear Eagle F1 GS-D3s on the 16" Superformance wheels.

Barry
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The stock springs and shock, the springs in particular, don't deal well with the loads modern tires generate. Once the springs/shocks are upgraded to match the new tires, the car handles pretty well and I've got the autocross trophies to prove it

 

Hey Mark

Do you have a post somewhere here about your suspension setup?

 

I can tell you, putting the 17" HRE's and the Pierelli's on the Dino made an incredible difference!

Cheers!

 

If you do a search , there are a lot of 308 shock threads. I did mine 5-6 years ago so it would be in the old archieve....but I can't seem to find it. I have Ohlins STJ shocks with 450lb/in front shocks and 400 lb/in on the rear. There are many other set-ups the owners seem happy with, but they all share stiffer springs. A lot of guys like 250/200 or 300/250 springs...which I tried and found too soft for my tastes.

 

Barry,

Your car looked great out there. I was running the Corvette that day, not the 308. Love that picture of your car. Hope you blew that picture up and put it on the wall in your den. That one day event that FCA does at Pocono in October is really fun... not a lot of people and almost unlimited track time.

I ran the 308 up at Watkins Glen over Labor Day at the Ferrari National Meet, with 16" Gotti wheels with Kumho Victoracers on. It handled superbly, even with the old bushings that need replacing. If that car had about 100 more HP, it would be untouchable. Love to drive the 308 on the track.

You should join us at Watkins Glen with FCA in May. It's a blast, huge amount of track time and a great bunch of people. Too early in the season for all but the true enthusiasts, so the quality of driving is generally very good and there are some great instructors who come out 'cause they get a lot of track time.

 

You likely lapped your friend because you drive a lot better. I recall a recent Top Gear where Jackie Stewart talked one of the hosts to 6 seconds faster in one day on their test track. And I imagine he is a good driver to start with, with all the toys they drive every week. I would think you could put me in a 430 and Jackie in a 308 and he'd lap me before too long too. That being said, of couse modern family cars are as fast as supercars back in the day, but many old sports cars will still out handle them because that's what they were built for, at least starting in the late 1960's. Not sure how the 1950's cars would fare.

Tires are very, very important in skidpad tests. Like the 308, my 1972 Lotus was tested new (Road & Track) at like .83 G's which they said was the 2nd best they ever had on a production street car at that time (the 246 was the best!). Today, a Europa with street legal Auto-x tires will pull over 1 G. Of couse, the rear wheel bearings last one summer if you're lucky, but that's a different story!

Ken

 

Think it was me who you are referring to as over 1G in a 308. Never did a skid pad, yet my data acquisition system outputs data and i overlaid it onto the video where it provides g-forces and other information.

http://www.enjoythetrack.com/video/

Note that tires were either Mich Pilot PS2 or Pilot Cups, not stickier Hoosier R as there are factors to consider when going R with a 308.

Would have done more development with the 308, yet got bored and figured the cost was getting way out of hand... so got a proper track car capable of 3G and can kick a 360 arse yet for a mere $20k entry fee

 

Really for a street and backroads car, that is a great compliment. I would much rather be pushing the limits and having a blast at the speed limit-ish in my GT4 than pushing a newer car just as hard going 2x, 3x or 4x the speed.

Now on the track against other cars I'll take the 4x, thank you. I know from racing a clapped out Miata that having .5x the speed is a problem.

 

You read my mind, Steve. I did order a poster-sized print for the den. I have next year's track schedule, courtesy of Classic Coach. I'll be at several events next year. I had a great time at Pocono!

 

Here's some data from the last autocross I went to . ..

This is with stock springs, revalved Koni's, big swaybars from Saner, and 16" street Toyo's.

I just put on the QA-1's with stiffer springs last week and re-aligned her this morning . . . suspect she'll pull over 1 g now.

I had a brand new 996 that I "tried" to drive like this and it just fell apart AC worked good though There's an "any car" autocross with the Porsche club coming up on 12/15 down here in San Diego where I'll be making some more believers out of the P gang

Sean
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Sean,
That 0.988 G with stock springs & Konis is seriously impressive!
What spring rates did you end up choosing to go with your QA1s,
& what was your selection rationale?