Stock C.R. on a 365 is 8.8:1, right? So you're about 12:1 now? That's pretty serious stuff. Are you running cams with a lot of overlap? It's nice to know custom pistons can be had for a reasonable price; forged hi-comp pistons for my 6 cyl. BMW are ~$900.
David, good one. A little humor keeps us all awake! thanks Did you dyno your car before and after the upgrades? Sounds like a really substantial improvement and can imagine the "new" motor is much more responsive, especially on the bottom end. John
CAn you explain the why's and wherefores's of the change in the exhaust port angle and how did the intake side improve? When are the new cams going in your car and when they do, what else are you going to do?
I spoke with the flat-12 specialist Wade at FoA this morning out of curiosity as to how much a BB512i rebuild would cost at an authorized Ferrari dealer. He said he could replace the rings with some higher quality ones from the aftermarket , install new aftermarket SS alloy valves, do some proprietary performance head work , along with all the stuff normally done in a full cam belt service for between $20k and $25k...That's really not bad for getting the work done by a Ferrari dealer that will have the financial resources to stand behind their work it they screw up...while an independent may be able to match that price, if he screwed something up he may not have the money to make it good like a dealer does. Wade did say that the OEM heads are designed for emissions and not HP and the head work he does really wakes up the engine ! Something to ponder?
Then send it over Frank, sounds like a great deal. You'll notice I was careful to keep my cards close to me when you asked for specifics, Im glad I didnt spill the beans, lol.
That's still a lot of money to spend on a car that is currently running great...I will ponder it, but will likely wait until I have some sort of problem or at least am due for a major engine out service anyway...and I'm a little perplexed about what you mean about not spilling the beans?
Good questions, basically anything going in a straight line wants to continue to do so. In the case of a port the straighter the shot is to the valve the better or the angle of the port leaving the valve on the exhaust side has a major effect on flow. In the case of the daytona head the intake angle is less direct than the boxer but its the opposite on the exhaust side. The boxer port takes a sharp downward turn after the valve which restricts the flow. By porting, the shape, angle and size of the port can be adjusted for more flow at any given lift for an increase across the range. If one wanted to get crazy, welding the port and changing the location to a higher position would provide the most from the head with a single exhaust valve per cylinder. I would never go to that extent on a collectible car but porting and flow testing I would. Valve selection/design is also critical as is seat finish and port alignment. Header primary tube size should also be chosen carefully such as stepping the diameter along the length to the collector if custom headers were wanted. Im undecided as to what ill do when I do the cams, Ill figure that out at that time since I might be in hurry and just do the cams to see the gain on the dyno or ill do the top end while its out just to upgrade the valves as disaster prevention with the sodium filled valves. Ill be waiting until the spring for sure either way since im up to my eyeballs in the 308 project.
Newman, thanks for the explanation, appreciate the details. Are you just rebuilding the 308 or bringing more power etc to it as well?
This pic is from "the engine" by Ray Ichiro ***uno which shows perfectly what im talking about regarding port angle between the daytona and boxer heads. The boxer is on the right and you can see the port furthest to the right is the boxer exhuast port. Compare it to the daytona ports, you can see the poor boxer design....but that can be fixed by someone like myself for no cost when I have the heads off. Image Unavailable, Please Login
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4503&highlight=79+308+restoration&page=27 Its a resto and I swapped in higher compression pistons, did head work and a few other minor mods but it aint no boxer for power! I see the filter wont let me post the authors last name, its F U KUNO
Good day Franklin, I found your statement: ...quite offensive to those independents that do excellent work. How is it that you would know if an independent would not honor their work or have the resources to repair a mistake they made. Further, how do you know that a dealer would own up to their mistake? There are no guarantees in any endeavor, but to compare a dealer to an independent simply upon price and not knowing the extent of work and/or experience or the basis that they may stand-up behind their work better than an independent is short sighted. Perhaps this was not your intent, but it certainly came off that way to me. In regards to comparing the technical skill of a dealer and an independent, well, this too is also questionable and subjective. How could you compare a dealer's performance modification skills to that of an independent that does these modifications routinely (if not daily)? At any rate, a customer will decide who to take their car to based upon a multitude of factors that I hope is not simply because one is a dealer and one is not. Cheers, Sam
It probably came off offensive or snotty to most people Sam, I got that vibe as well but I looked at the source and understood, lol.
My heads will be off soon. Definatly going to do the valves. i think Robin in Ok used titanium ones any suggestions would be appreciated. Also once the heads are off it would make sense to do some reasonable head work, any suggestions on what to do here would be appreciated too. There was significant leakdown on cylindes 10 and 11, if its not in the heads and the pistons need to come out, suggestions here are welcome too. I an thinking of keeping the stock FI. EFI might be great but then that is a whole order of magnmitude more to contend with. Newman would love to hear if you can make the cams work before mine goes back together, could be a n interesting option. Lastly anybody know of someone who can restore the seats. They are Ok but could use a cleanup and touchup.
Yes I would love to help and will. You'll be done before my cam project is so you have a couple of options. One is to buy used 365 or carbed 512 cams or send yours to WEB cams in california for a performance weld and regrind. The problem with the regrind is if they are too much for the CIS or you get in over your head on recalibrating the WUR's to compensate, you dont have the stock cams to fall back on. As for valves, keep the stock sizes so you can reuse your seats provided they are in spec - probably are. New modern guides, modern positive seals and stainless valves with cut-down stems are the ticket or titainium if the sky's the limit on budget. Most of the focus should be on the exhaust side ports, if you havent ported before then farm this out. I can help you there or you can find some reputable head specialist near you im sure. Upgraded cams and that head work will reward you with little or no puff on start-up and my guess 50HP+ over stock. Mine put down 320HP, I cant see why 370HP+ cant be reached even with the CIS. The TR's are 390HP with CIS so its not killing the power that much.
I meant no offense to independents..my comment never questioned the competency of dealers over independents...in fact, most of the work I ever get done is by an independent...a lot of them are actually better than some dealers. However, a lot of them do not have the financial resources of a dealer and may not be able withstand a $30k mistake and stay in business like a dealer that made the same mistake. i.e., benefit of a deep pocket
Good day Franklin, This may indeed be true, however, if I had to evaluate a company by their ability to "pay up" if they "screw up", I would not be doing any business with this firm... If I have no confidence in their ability to do the job correctly, why would I even consider them? If one undertakes a project like this (performance modifications), then one should have some sort of a working relationship with the people/company doing the work. After all, this type of work is specialized and is somewhat open-ended and as such there could be things that arise during the course of these modifcations that may require additional work and/or parts... which translates to increased costs. So what happens then? Does one hold the company to their price, and the company bites the additional cost? Or does one work together with this firm to arrive at a reasonable price change? If you do the former, then the company assumes all the risk and has to overcharge you in the event of these unforeseen events. If you do the latter, then the risk is shared and the increased costs are too. Having a relationship with the firm is independent of their pocketbook. Another point to consider is what could go wrong?... well, remember, that any type of performance modifications may affect a component's (engine in this case) reliability and longevity and the degree with which this occurs depends upon the extent of the modifications. Reliability/longevity and performance are typically opposites of each other in that you typically cannot enhance one without reducing the other. So, understand that if one undertakes modifications one must also assume the risks with these modifications as well... not the company, but you, as it is your car and your request for the modification. Again, the bottom line is to find a company/person you have confidence in and have a good relationship as there are no guarantees with any company/person no matter how deep their pockets are. Cheers, Sam
Geez.....$17K is cheap for an all out Boxer engine....... We are doing a high performance build on a 3.2 Porsche engine......target is 325/350HP and 7500 RPM.......gonna cost $22K +/-....Carrillo rods....trick headwork.....3.8 RSR cams......PMO injection....etc.....etc.....
Yes, its a very reasonable price since I have no overhead and if I screw it up I can cover my mistakes, lol! My quote was after the engine was already out as mentioned early on but thats not a huge job anyway.
Ahhhhhh.......so "you" are doing all the labor ? If you had to pay someone it would probably be comparable then. Glad to hear that......kinda puts to rest those Ferrari engine rebuild stories.
Yes thats me doing the labour and geting paid by someone, it wouldnt be on my own car. The problem we see all too often is the price goes up when its for a ferrari or a special exotic car like the porsche. An engine's and engine, there is no special premium attached to it when I do the job. The only thing out of my control is the ferrari specific parts prices for gaskets but aside from that the rest is custom and it doesnt matter what the brand is.
