We will never know the full extent of the use of Ferrari data by the McLiaran Team. They should have to start every race in 2008 at the back of the grid. Their advertisers will get exposure. we will see their cars and drivers. and they will have a chance for some podium finishes. Couldn't happen to a nicer bunch of guys.
Yes John they did cheat and so did other teams cheat so why arent you banging on about them. I love the sport want fair play and I cant keep my gob shut when I see baised f wit's not ruling it fairly.
When the FIA are forced by a civil suit to investigate the computers and data that Ferrari have, will you also be fully accepting of Ferrari having to start every race at the back of the grid. The funny thing is every team will be forced to do this and thus qualifying will become even more pointless than it currently is. There are only 2 answers: - The FIA admit they are compete fncken morons and undo the ruling against McLaren, and resign never to be involved with ANY sport again. - Ferrari are handed every championship win for the next 10 years in a massive new years party in Monaco. F1 is then stopped and this makes the greenies happy because less green house gases are emitted from such a wasteful process and Max is over the moon because he finally has reduced costs. Motorsport programs will show stills of the F2008 Ferrari for 60 minutes so that Ferrari sponsors get their moneys worth ... because ofcourse Jean needs to continue his lavish lifestyle and keep his friend Max in the way he has become used to ... thus Ferrari sponsors have to keep paying. Again I honestly say that I am ashamed of any Ferrari fan that aims to feel like a winner for the 2009 season. Winning races by laps because every other team is useless is not winning. Again I pin my hopes on Alonso and Renault ... to atleast make it competitive, but I am pretty sure I have watched my last F1 joke er, race. Pete
Just for the record: Brawn and co moved to Ferrari in 1997 and their first Ferrari was still designed by Barnard. Nothing to do with the Benetton. Wich was a good thing, as the last Benettons made by Brawn were quite crappy. Relax, man, or some vein is going to blow as a radiator hose in a hot day. And by the way, I´d add Ron Dennis to the **** yourselves list, but hey, I think that we had enough fun last year, so I vote for let him live in 08.
I'm sure Pete meant to say 2007 but the frothing at the mouth distorted his hand/eye coordination.. I for one am a proud tifoso who is still in shock that KR won (or Hammy pissed it away, take your pick) but I think KR will repeat next year.
Ferrari: spy case legal action to continue By Jonathan Noble Thursday, December 13th 2007, 21:17 GMT Ferrari are ready to accept a move by the FIA to bring the McLaren spy saga to an imminent close, following an apology from the British team today, but have made it clear they will still press ahead with ongoing court action. McLaren on Thursday published a letter of apology from F1 CEO Martin Whitmarsh to FIA president Max Mosley written last week, in which the Woking-based outfit said they were sorry for not realising the extent to which Ferrari information had manifested itself inside their organisation. Furthermore, the team offered to freeze development of parts on their 2008 car which the FIA felt had been influenced by confidential Ferrari information that the team had in their hands. The apology and offer of development freeze were enough for the FIA to state this evening that it would now push the World Motor Sport Council to cancel a hearing planned for February to examine the team's 2008 car plans. Should that be accepted, then the spy matter will have a line drawn underneath it. In response to the events, Ferrari issued a statement tonight saying they would respect the FIA's decision to take such a course of action, but made it clear they had no plans to halt legal action that is ongoing in Britain and Italy. "Ferrari notes the apology offered today by the McLaren Group, following the investigations carried out by the FIA Technical Department, as presented to the WSMC on 7th December last," said the statement. "The written and verbal statements issued by senior McLaren personnel both at the World Council meetings of the 26th July and 13th September and through the media have thus been publicly proved wrong. "Therefore it is admitted that confidential information which was the property of Ferrari was disseminated within the structure of the English team and this also confirms the seriousness of the behaviour of those involved over the past few months. "In the light of McLaren's apology and the guarantees it has presented, Ferrari respects the proposal of the FIA President to cancel the extraordinary general meeting of the WSMC scheduled for 14th February coming, thus bringing this incident to a close from a sporting point of view. However, it is confirmed that criminal actions underway in Italy and civil ones in England are still continuing."
+1 Andreas, two of the biggest overpaid egomaniacs. What bothers me about this is, that these two jerks were going to probably take the information to Honda as well.
Steve, I believe Renault should take a hit as well in the sense of fair play as they got caught as well and they have a huge budget so a $100M fine wouldn't worry them as much as McL so some other penalty for STEALING other people's ideas needs to be found, like the "you lose points" idea. The Toyota fiasco some years ago when the engine guys (ex-Ferrari) were caught should have done some time in the big house as so should Stepney and Coughlan and then banned from participating in F1 forever but in today's PC world nobody takes responsibility for their actions. But at the end of the day McL have been given a $100M penalty and had all their points removed, that should have set the bar for future espionage dealings but in some twisted way the Renault spies are let off the hook ???!!! I still believe to this day that Ferrari were using that Russian software guy to hide their traction control but how are you going to prove it without getting access to the source code or the magic degaussing tool but at least that was Ferrari using their own cheating resource, a bit like the Renault LC being hooked up to the starting lights
http://edition.cnn.com/2007/SPORT/12/13/mclaren.apology.ap/index.html WOKING, England (AP) -- The McLaren team apologized on Thursday for their role in the Formula One spy scandal. McLaren were front runners in the 2007 championship race but became embroiled in controversy. In a letter to FIA's World Motorsport Council, McLaren chief operating officer Martin Whitmarsh expressed his embarrassment that secret Ferrari documents were widely spread through his team. McLaren were fined a record $100 million in September by the WMSC for unauthorized possession of confidential Ferrari materials. The team were also kicked out of the constructors' championship. McLaren has acknowledged that some Ferrari information had been disclosed directly, or indirectly, to people within the company apart from test driver Pedro de la Rosa and former driver Fernando Alonso. "We apologize unreservedly if our prior ignorance of some of these facts has misled the World Motor Sports Council and we can only assure you all that this was never our intention," Whitmarsh wrote. Whitmarsh said McLaren's own investigations into the case were insufficient and it was "a matter of deep regret for us that our understanding of the facts has improved as a result of a FIA inspection rather than our own prior investigations." The case broke open in July when a 780-page technical dossier on Ferrari cars was found at the home of McLaren's chief designer, Mike Coughlan, who later was suspended. Ferrari mechanic Nigel Stepney, who allegedly supplied the documents, was fired. McLaren said in a separate statement that the situation could have been avoided if the team had told FIA about Stepney's first communication right away. "We are, of course, embarrassed by the successive disclosures," the statement said. "To avoid even the possibility of Ferrari information influencing our performance during 2008, McLaren has offered a set of detailed undertakings to the FIA which will impose a moratorium on development in relation to three separate systems." McLaren also offered a public apology and promised a similar situation would never occur again. It also agreed to pay FIA's costs for the investigation. On Dec. 8, FIA deferred a ruling on whether McLaren illegally used the confidential Ferrari data to design its 2008 car. The council called an extraordinary general meeting for Feb. 14 in Paris where McLaren, Ferrari and other F1 teams can make their case. If found guilty, McLaren could face severe sanctions for the 2008 season, which starts March 16 with the Australian Grand Prix. Whitmarsh said McLaren had suffered greatly from the spy scandal. "Apart from the morale sapping consequence within the team, its ability to continue its task of generating investment has, as I am sure anyone can imagine, been made virtually impossible," Whitmarsh wrote in the letter, dated Dec. 5 "Consequently, the long term damage to the team's previously outstanding record and commercial capability is significantly greater than that potentially envisaged by the fiscal penalty that was previously imposed upon the team." The letter was written before the WMSC hearing on Dec. 7 in which Renault was found guilty of possessing confidential McLaren information but escaped punishment.
Pete, sorry, you haven't accepted it and now you're going down this blackhole about everyone else cheating blahblahblah If McL pulled out we wouldn't even notice them being gone, someone else will , and always has, step up to the plate and give Ferrari a smacking or at least a decent fight as I expect Renault or Honda or BMW to do next year. I was disappointed in BMW this year because several other tifosi and I were at the Melb GP and the BMWs were very noticable for there strong performances but seemed to fade as the season went on. Renault should be penalised for their part in the season's fiascos but Max only seems to want to punish Lucifer (fair dibs in my book, I can't stand him ) so how come Flav has more power than Lucifer in the pommy dominated FIA ??? You'd think the Poms would be only too keen to give the frogs a smack but oh no, we'll save that for Ron
Actually Ferrari has further added in their statement that: "the McL's MEA CULPA is proof that the oral and written statements made to the FIA and to the media by the high level hierarchy at McL were contradictory and untruthful thus demonstrating the seriousness of McL 's bad behaviour and also the fact that Ferrari's proprietary and confidential information was widely disseminated". At least the sporting spygate is finished and F1 can start fresh again....and I guess the legal one is just starting...but at least it will not grab as much attention.
Ofcourse he will ... every race will be one by atleast 5 laps. A completely boring walk over for 2008. And no I meant to say 2008, as 2007 was still competitive (other than WCC which doesn't matter anyway ... to me atleast). It's 2008 that the FIA have destroyed. Pete
Always been my point of view, ie. IMO McLaren have done nothing that anybody else does every single chance they get. There is nothing wrong with cheating from other teams in motorsport IMO. Renault won't and Honda won't for years, if they ever do. But that is not the point. The point is Ferrari are intensionally using outside the sport politics to neuter their main opposition. BMW can't make F1 cars, and have 2 almost drivers. No, nobody should be. Because RD was one of the main "drivers" for the split away series. Thus this is an old score to set. Also Flav and Bernie are in bed together ... they own a sporting team outside F1 together, etc. This is all about the break away series. RD was the main player and lets see, hmmm, the only team that was on Max's side was ... hmmm, now unable to make this sound unbias, friggin Ferrari and Mr snck up Jean Todt himself. Ever since then the FIA and Max have done whatever Ferrari wanted. Fine, but this was too far IMO, and not good for the sport. This IMO is another example of Ferrari taking the sport out of F1 and running every thing like a business. IMO F1 paddle shifters are as useful or related to a road car as fluffy dice hanging from the rear view mirror. A completely poor use of technology that makes a road car less envolving to drive. Think about why paddle shift came about (and no not the real reason, but the useful reason), faster shifts and hands on the steering wheel. Does that really matter when you putter down to Starbucks in your oh so cool Ferrari? ... no. Does that matter when you are having a blast ... no, because there is no race to win. Does that matter when a very rare occurrence of a road Ferrari braving a race track ... no, because a better driver will still kick your/my @rse as he changes gear himself. It's 100% posuer rubbish. Just as carbon brakes are also a waste of time on a road car. There has been no serious advance in road car design that came from F1 for many, many years ... and unfortunately this is one area where Max and I do agree. Pete
F1 has been a business for a long time now, like ever since BE got in with the Brabham team so, ECUs, advances in 'normal' brakes, underfloor aero, traction control, tyre technology advances, oil improvement, and probably quite a few I've forgotten just happened to appear because the large manufacturers thought of looking after their customers ????? Most of the advancements we have in todays daily drivers (my QV is my daily driver btw) all came about from racing - disc brakes (Jaguar), mag wheels (Bugatti), monocoque chassis (Lotus I think), F1 shift (Ferrari - John Barnard), wings (Lotus??), traction control (??) and electronics that can stand the violent environment of cars without destroying themselves .... a lot of people have no idea how hard it was to get the early electronics to work in a vibrating, hot, wet, dirty environment (almost sounds like a porno flick description )
So do Ferrari have to stop using the "zero keel" front suspension arrangement, as this was clearly a Mcl design/development. Only asking, because everyone here is so interested in fairness.
You can add some other external to the car elements as well. The Jaws of Life carried on every Rescue Squad around the globe was developed to cut the less skilled or more daring drivers from their wrecked race cars. Racing has saved the lives of many folks right there when the other driving aids failed. My view on the paddle shifters is that it will save lives on the street too as other vehicles adapt them, such as semi-trucks driving on twisting nerrow mountain roads where the drivers will now be able to keep both hands on the wheel, not needing to take their hands off to down shift or set brakes.
Breaking news!! Mclaren to be banned for 2008, FIA investigation fout them to have a car with 4 wheels, 1 engine, and the driver sitting in the middle!! All these were seen on the 2007 Ferrari. Give me a break !!
John, Notice my comment: " ... for many years ... ". But I will never agree that the paddle shift adds to driving pleasure or is necessary on a road car ... and I will never own one! Pete
