I said this many months ago. Italians are masters at politics and they knew Stepney was a wanker and upset. They knew what was going on, especially after the floor incident, thus carefully used Stepney until McLaren was knee deep in the poo ... then bring in their mates from the FIA!~!~! I have to give Todt credit, and heck I would never want to do business with him ... too crafty for me . Pete
Well yes as you would, It has been posted before your working on something and a alternative drops in your lap,oh well lets have a look still what a price to pay...
I wouldn't compare industrial espionage with "falling in your lap". The price they paid was actually a bargain. They should have been excluded from the 07 championship. Aside from the obvious reasons, I'm really glad Ferrari got the WDC and WCC this year. Because now I can say that McLaren should have been excluded without sounding like sour grapes. What they did in 07 goes way beyond the usual knowledge transfer that occurs when people get hired by another company. This was active espionage and the active pursuit of information. Some people on here fail to see the difference.
Okay, I dug out the FIA regulations: Article 11.1.1: All cars must be equipped with only one brake system. This system must compromise solely of two seperated circuits, one circuit operating on the two front wheels, and the other on the two rear wheels. So we have established that we are only allowed to have one circuit for the front and one for the rear. Now 11.1.2 ....the force exerted on the brake pads within each circuit are the same at all times What this sentence says is that you are not allowed to brake with more force on the front left wheel then on the front right wheel. It only speaks about the inner elements of the circuits (=brake pads), NOT about the relationship between the two circuits. The balance between the two circuits is not mentioned as they are clearly seperated by mentioning "brake pads within each circuit" 11.1.3 Any powered devide which is capable of altering the configuration [...] of the brake system is forbidden. Neither a spring nor a valve is a powered device. What they had in mind here is clearly that the lever is allowed, but any electronic control is forbidden. They didn't think of mechanical systems here. That might indeed be true! But I gues 99% of that stuff is in the areodynamical field like flexing wings (... or floors ), or maybe software, but any illegal mechanical part will be found during the scrutineering.
Well just a flippant use of the word I think you no where I'am coming from..OTT fine dont agree. They will pay the price for a long time in my view for a stupid mistake which I still believe If it had not happened the result of the GP would have been pretty much the same.. But yes no fine and kicked out once proven without doubt guilty would have been a better policy.
I wasn't particularly going after you. I have said it a million times and I say it again: I don't understand why Mercedes is not taking action. They basically own the team and have now the PR mess on their hands, yet they continue to pay like lemmings with no managerial changes at all.
The fine was really a stupid move. Now FIA have to let every team caught spying and cheating pay such a sum or they'll completely lose their credibility. What do you say? Renault? Oh well, seems they chose the latter +1 Okay, time for bed now. Cu mates
I guess I will have to leave this to "individual interpretation", because that is not what I read from that sentence, and if I was a rival team I would seek clarification from the FIA . , I very much understand the difference. My view is that active espionage is part of the sport and should always be. I also (if I was running F1) would have a very tight clause written into each teams contract actively forbidding any claim to intellectual properly on anything they use and bring to a race meeting. Intellectual property laws will lead to identical cars being the only solution . Pete
No worries M8 I thought your darkside was appearing (joke).. It is a puzzle why Mercedes havn't done or said much about it they must still have faith in RD Just read this :Ron Dennis says he has no intention of stepping down as the head of McLaren after a bruising week that saw his team publicly apologise for the part it played in September's spygate scandal. McLaren made an apology to the FIA on Thursday and admitted that the confidential Ferrari information at the centre of the scandal had been more "widely disseminated" within the team than it had originally believed.
What you don't seem to understand is the difference between legally and illegally obtaining this information. Every team has "spies" out there whose sole job it is to take a lot of pics of the other teams' cars so they can compare e.g. aero settings and aero solutions. There are people around the track capturing the sound of the engines to evaluate the rpms and HPs (an Italian journalist came up with an algorithm to guesstimate hp based on rpms/sound etc). That is all absolutely legal as it is in the public domain. Potentially paying a spy in your competitor's company to produce documents, drawings etc is a very different matter. When you read the FIA transcripts with the comments from de la Rosa and Alonso, they knew what was going on and were actually thrilled. They asked Coughlan actively to seek answers to questions they had. And then Coughlan got on the phone or his email and asked pointed questions to Stepney who then produced the answers. That is very different from being a good observer.
I'm starting to think it is actually in our (Ferrari's) best interests that Mercedes keeps this arrogant moron in charge. He was too naive to realize his entire management team was lying to him, so he can only do us more good in the future. After all it was him on the command post in China not calling in Lewis for a very needed tire change. And it was him who ordered a 3rd and completely unnecessary pitstop in Interlagos, which ruined Lewis' race and any chances at the title. Thank you Mercedes, keep this guy in charge.
We are discussing a sport, why does legality become involved? That is my point. The only reason it can be considered illegal is intellectual property laws ... but again this is a sport where no products are sold (other than T shirts, etc. ). Thus there is no intellectual property. Thus obtaining other competitors documents no matter how (as long as murder is not involved, etc.) is not illegal ... plus it is actually GOOD for the sport, ie. keeps competitors close, helps the poorer teams gain rich teams solutions, etc. Am I making sense, as it's hard to explain. Pete
No you don't. And you know I like you. I really don't get it how you can say there is no illectual property involved because it is a sport. F1 is first and foremost an engineering exercise that determines which car manufacturer can come up with the best solution to a given problem/challenge (as defined in the rules). It is ALL about intellectual capability and with that property. Having said all that, I'm not sure the FIA should have stepped into this mess. It is industrial espionage and as such should be dealt with by the proper professionals: The police and the legal system. "Amateurs" like the FIA can only screw this up. Heck the FIA has a hard time getting consistent race stewards around the world. This thing is way out of their league.
Yes but the problem is to win the race, NOT to create the best selling passenger car, etc. The link (for selling passenger cars) is only in marketing. I guess I am being idealistic but I will say to I drop dead that intellectual property laws, if enforced, will kill motorsport. The last thing i want to see is McLaren come up with a brilliant idea that gives them seconds a lap improvement, and then Ferrari cannot copy any part of that idea for a 5 year period. That is not motorsport, that is BORING. Exactly and Amen and +1000. Yep don't have a problem with Ferrari sueing McLaren for loss of information OUTSIDE the sport (as they are going to do), but the FIA should have said to Ferrari "so what" and kept out of it all together. Pete
Also stated is that Ferrari had been given information from Coughlhan to Stepney on their weight distribution and also on the McLaren pit strategy. Stepney apparently initially played a bit of a quid-pro-quo with McLaren. Yet we never hear anyone screaming about that flow of information and what they did with it. I'll be the first to say that it wasn't as severe as the info flowing in the opposite direction and probably helped to tip off the fact that Stepney couldn't be trusted. That in no way though reduces the fact that Ferrari was open to info from McLaren.
The link is not just in marketing. As mentioned below, the F1 paddle shift is just one example. I share your concern about intellectual property laws. But the bigger issue here is, that the FIA is meddling with F1 in a way they should never have. Something they have a long standing tradition of: Think about all the ingenious ways Colin Chapman designed his cars and what they did to outlaw them. The double chassis car for instance. Or Gordon Murray's "vacuum cleaner". Same goes for Renault's mass damper system. Sometimes they let a great invention get through (e.g. ground effect car) and that team runs away with the title (Mario in the Lotus) and sometimes they have a hissy fit over it (mass damper). If one thing can be said about the FIA it is, that they are very consistent in ruling inconsistently.
The paddle shifter IMO is really just marketing, ie. your car is almost a F1 car ... cool man. Because as you say they don't function correctly (ie. turn with the wheel) and also there is absolutely no need for the technology on a road car. I'm amazed greenie do gooders have not been questioning that all paddle shift car owners must be speeders and thus a danger to society as "they are concerned about how fast a gear change takes" on our PUBLIC roads! Excellent points as usual ... this current FIA meddle though has the potential to end motorsport, or reduce it to a joke like yachting where every race is decided in the courts . Pete
I think you are overly concerned about an esoteric legal issue when it's the impact on the sport that is the really important consideration for those of us who are racing fans. The bottom line is that in either case a team, at least theoretically, ends up with a better car than they would have had by using another team's ideas. Whether the acquisition of those ideas is "legal" or "illegal" doesn't change that. If your concern is that teams should not be able to improve their cars by using others' ideas you would need to prevent "legal" as well as "illegal" use of ideas and designs. I believe the F1 world accepts that "technology transfer" is not a bad thing for the sport. If that wasn't the case teams could stop it by patenting their designs, which would prevent any copying, "legal" or "illegal".
Unfortunately this has to be the FIA's job. They have to set the rules, measure the compliance, and dole out the penalties if needed. There has to be, and probably is, a "limiting" factor in the rules which states that the FIA has the final responsibility in punishment. If not we get things like the Police visiting Mclaren at the Italian race. This is not the place for governments and their separate laws to step in. All , including Ferrari, must accept this if they choose to participate in the sport. Does Mclaren have the option to take their punishment to the English courts for a reversal or reduction ? I don't think so. Do we want to see the cars with "Chassis by Mclaren. Engine by Mercedes. Legal counsel by Dewey, Cheatem, and Howe" ? I feel the FIA HAS to do a better job ( forget their Kangaroo court system ) in giving fair penalties or they will infuriate ALL the teams. No one will trust their judgement. And dissatisfaction is the engine of change; Bye bye FIA.
Bye bye Max Mosley it should be. I hope F1 will always be ruled by the FIA. I don't want to see a runaway series that would leave the sport in the mess boxing is in. We don't need another series, we need more consistent rulings in the existing one.
+1000 +1000 +1000 +1000 +1000 Yes just striaght forward rules no ' sense of biased in other words remove the rotten pompus git leader.. .
It is not just Mad Max, it is also the lack of consistent local track stewards. This year the Lewis crane and the Alonso 10 spots back at Hungary stand out. Last year we had the incomprehensible ruling against Alonso for "blocking" Massa at Monza (while driving 300 meters ahead of him). These things are such blatant attempts at forcing a result and the decisions are often made by local stewards.
