Engine oil additives...anyone use them?

Really old and very dated and doing a slam job with out any offering of content themselves. checked out their website, sorry not inpressed by these guys. Alot has happened in sixteen years, is this the best you have to offer?

 

Here is some recent discussion on MMO alone. It is at BobIsTheOilGuy web site:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1044064#Post1044064
And others:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1041361#Post1041361
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1031056#Post1031056
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1036383#Post1036383
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1030452#Post1030452
All from here:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=postlist&Board=5&page=1

aehaas

 

I have used seafoam in many of my cars and it works awesome. It has saved me from a 3000 dollar engine rebuild in my land rover discovery. It totally cleaned out the exhaust valves and intake manifold. unbelievable product

However, I dont exactly add it to the oil. I uncork a vacuum line that goes to the intake manifold and very slowly pour a whole can in. Once it is in I let the car sit for an hour. Then start it. The thing will smoke like the dickens for a good 3 to 5 minutes. once the car engine is warmed up I rev it hard and it really cleans it out. I did this 3 times on my rover and the engine light and error codes totally went away.

I have yet to try it on the ferrari but plan to in the spring.

-Nate

 

I use MMO to help clean out engines, especially before a teardown. Its very high detergent, and its very slippery. You cant use it during break in as the rings wont seat. It also appears to penetrate metal pretty good, and is very good at preventing metal surfaces from corrosion. On engines that are using oil, if its suspected the rings are carbon fouled, MMO can help clean the deposits away and possibly restore the rings efficiency.

There are no miracle cures. Worn engines will always need repair, not some magic additive or formula in a bottle. Aircraft mechanics I know, and have known, dont run MMO as any matter of course. Some simply recommend it on older engines, or on those that sit for extended periods, especially outside, as it helps keep the insides from rusting. Use high quality oil of the correct grade, change it often, and you wont "generally" need to use anything else. Just be sure to keep your ear to the ground about the changes in oil formulas. The EPA and others remain ruthless in thier efforts to make our lives difficult by continually forcing manufactures to remove ingredients they deem harmful, even when there is no real scientific evidence to support it. And by the looks of the way things are going, we better an eye on zinc content.

 

Dr. Haas - I normaly quite admire your expertise and enthuisiasm for all things pertaining to tribology, but when you leave a post with 1 link that has some pros and cons to using MMO (with no good fact based studies pointing in either direction) and a number of other links that are also inconclusive at best... I wonder a bit.

WHY does the topic of oil additives have to be so poorly defined? Give me two metallic surfaces, spritz oil and whatever else you wish betwixt them, and rub them together in a hot environment. If the "whatever else" results in less wear, abrasion, or friction - it is good. If it messes things up, it is bad.

The oil additive discussion is worse than the speaker cable debate among audiophiles. The problem is, you can use barbed wire for speaker cable & it probably won't HARM anything. Use the wrong lubricants and you COULD destroy an engine worth tens of thousands of dollars...

 

Interesting...Why aren't they putting it in the oil themselves? I think I know the answer, I guess they figure if your'e going to buy one you might as well buy it from them.

 

The problem is that motor oil is so very complex that it cannot be easily explained, not a single aspect. Learned people argue about their favorite brand of oil being superior to another person’s favorite brand. There are small differences where either one may have a slight advantage in a given application.

If some additive products actually gave every engine 10 percent more BHP and 10 percent more gas mileage and stopped you from burning oil and stopped hesitation et cetera then it would have been patented and we would all be using it. Unfortunately there is no panacea.

Yet some problem specific additives are useful until the problem is resolved. You must think about the negative side though, the side effects. For example, there are additives that have high levels of detergents. That is their main mode of action. If you have a dirty engine then cleaning it may result in a slight increase in BHP and fuel economy. If your engine is already clean then there is no benefit.

But what are the side effects? Detergents may result in more gas bubbles in the oil or foaming. This is the major reason that race oils have no detergents. There are other issues too. So while you run this detergent product in your oil and you run at high oil temperatures and high RPM then there would be increased wear secondary to foaming alone. For the relatively short time you are using the additive to clean your dirty engine the increased wear may be acceptable. But it will be detrimental after the cleanout.

Zinc is much more complex. We often speak of ZDDP as if it is a single compound. There are multiple zinc variations, some much better (and usually more expensive) than others. It is possible to have an analysis of an oil that shows both zinc and phosphorous but no ZDDP at all. ZDDP is an anti-wear additive and an antioxidant. It must be mixed in proportion to other compounds otherwise it may be corrosive. In higher concentrations it can also increase wear.

People often think that if some is good then more is better. This is rarely the case.

aehaas

 

From Consumers Union Consumer Reports:

JOHN'S TOOL BOX: EXPERT ADVICE ON AUTO MAINTENANCE AND REPAIR 7/04
... often asked if it is worth it spending money on oil additives such as ... Oil brands Q. Does the brand of oil matter ... A. My suggestion on motor oil is straightforward ...

"Oil additives
Q. Are oil additives worth using?
A. I'm often asked if it is worth it spending money on oil additives such as Prolong, DuraLube, and ZMax? My answer is simple. Keep your money and be sure to change your oil on time."

aehaas

 

If I understand (please correct me if I'm wrong).

An argument can be made for additives containing detergents or zinc compounds under certain limited circumstances.

Apparently PTFE in any form as a motor oil additive does more harm (filter clogging, hydrofluoric acid contamination) than good.

 

Catalitic converters are why. The Goverment has mandated they have to last 100,000 miles in stead of the origional 50,000 miles they started with. The sad part they (the oil companies, car makers and the goverment) don't know for sure if the reduction
of ZDDP will help xtend their life.


Stephen

 

Article review: ZDDP and Catalyst Deterioration
A review of mine from the Powertrain and Fluid Meeting, October 29 - November 1, 2007:

Low Volatility ZDDP Technology: Part 2 - Exhaust Catalysts Performance in Field Applications: Bardasz et al, Lubrizol; Hubbard et al, Ford Motor Co:

Six 2003 NY Taxi Ford Crown Victoria 4.6-2V V8 cabs were run over 100,000 miles over 2 years on a dyno using the FTP-75 driving cycle. Oils were changed at 5,000 miles with a 5W20 GF-4 SM conventional oil. Three cars had “conventional” ZDDP and the others had low volatility ZDDP both at a phosphorous concentration of around 0.75.

After the test period the O2 sensors showed no unusual deterioration. The catalytic systems were taken off the cars and tested for working efficiencies by Southwest Research Institute in San Antonio, TX.

Both oils maintained “excellent” antiwear and antioxidancy performance.
There was a 30 % reduction of deposits on the low volatility ZDDP cats.
Improved THC light off times.
NO emissions reduced 10 %.
CO emissions were lowered by 50 % after the forward cat and 15 % after the second cat.
(This means to me that there is much more reserve left in the system using the low vol ZDDP)

One car using the low volatility ZDDP but with the highest oil consumption showed no improvement over the regular ZDDP cars.

This is one study that seems to be well done and shows that both oil consumption and the use of high volatility ZDDP results in significantly higher catalyst deterioration. Note that there are multiple ZDDP formulations.

aehaas

 

I am trying to keep my 308 running with out having to replace cams $$$$$$$$ by usinig an additive cents compared to big bucks. I gave the best advice that can and what I do. If that mean I will have to replace the cats it will still be cheaper than an engine rebuild.

stephen

 

Frank, how about you and David S pony up the $$$ to fund a study?

 

Racing tells the tale. If additives were the least bit useful, it would be clearly proven and documented by racing results. The Le Mans 24 hour race comes to mind.

I have seen impressive friction demonstrations for additives. How the additive holds up long-term under engine stress is not part of the demo.

Oil additives, include me out!!!
Ken

 

I've seen the demonstrations too and the interesting thing is most of them are the same only with different additives providing the wanted results. The most popular is the steel ball being pushed against a spinning wheel with a torque wrench used to apply pressure. The salesman has you push on the torque wrench to see how much pressure it takes to stop the spinning wheel. He does this with different oils and popular additives and lastly tries his which maxes out the torque wrench without stopping the spinning wheel showing how his reduces friction.

I'm sure this is a trick, I'd love to know how they pull off the hoax if anyone knows?

With gas prices this high you have to ask yourself the question: If someone could produce something the would give you even a small increase in horsepower or milage don't you think they would have been given a noble prize and setting hundred dollar bills on fire at parties with Bill Gates and Warren Buffet? Every automotive magazine would be showing results of independant tests and surely the EPA would endorse and even promote it. Right now the only products I ever hear endorsed on TV or Radio is by people that are sponsored by the product. Be interesting to see if Pat Goss will still be pushing BG products once they stop sponsoring his show? He used to hawk some other additive until they pulled out.

 

Not true in all cases according to my machinist. Today's oil products favor fuel economy more than ever before. There are few oils that have the friction fighters oils used to have. I don't think Marvel Mystery oil has what is missing although there are a lot of good experiences documented on this board by its users. They focus more on oil consumption than engine life. Mobil 1 or a comparble synthetic is as close to ideal as you can find. If you don't want to run synthetic there are additives out there I think Lucas has a friction fighting additive and so does Kendall, but I don't recall their product names. A little more research should provide the answers.

 

I think they are somewhat focused on Emissions, not really fuel economy from what I have read. I still have yet to find any credible research showing any friction reducing or horsepower/fuel savings from any additives not already in a quality motor oil. I raced Formula2000 and FormulaFord for years. I ran synthetic racing oil and would have killed to find something I could add to my oil that would have given me an extra .5 horsepower regardless of cost.

Now, becuase of emissions concerns they are cutting back on some of the additive packages and it's worth doing a little research to buy the right oil but they used to put in a little more than needed anyway since it didn't hurt anything. I believe you void most oil and manufactures warrentees when you add anything to the oil.

 

I am new to the forum but have come across this topic with our CCCA (Classic Car Club of America) club. We have started seeing abnormally high wear on engine parts that was not happening with the old formulations of oil. And we are talking about Packard, Cadillac, Lincoln v-12, Duesenburg, etc (These are tough old motors made to run on crappy 60 octane gas.) It seems that the new formulations of oil labeled with SL types have the lower ZDDP amounts in order to get better emissions testing. Yes they have done testing (remember these are mostly older retired guys with lots of time and money on their hands) The Indiana chapter of the CCCA has contracted with DA Lubricants out of Indy to make a special formulation of oil for our older cars. Whereas the new oils have ZDDP ratios of 800 PPM, the older cars need around 1600 PPM. DA Lubricants is going to make a 15w-40 oil with the 1600 ppm of ZDDP as well as some additional additives designed for cars that sit for longer periods that helps keep oil on more of the top end parts to help during initial start up. They are talking about selling it for $48/case of 12 quarts plus some shipping. If anyone is interested I can find the rest of the info and post the phone number to order it from.

 

There are a couple of brands of oil, Brad Penn (The original greeen Kendall Oil) & Joe Gibbs Oil, neither being widely known but are directed to those concerned with the reduction of Zinc & Phosphorus. We can thank the EPA for its removal. The Zinc and Phosphorus aid in wear reduction affiliated with "scuffing". Primarily older type pushrod engines that employ flat tappets of either hydraulic or "solid" type endure this type of friction. Scuffing is the type of wear incurred by the tappet as it contacts the camshaft lobes. Your older typical American V8 that runs a "lot" of valve spring pressure aka: Hot Rodded, needs this high Zinc content emphatically, without it they will flatten one or more cam lobes shortly after initial startup, during break in. This is the same type of friction incured by a OHC engines camshaft lobe rubbing on a "Bucket Type" follower that may be in some of the older design Ferrari Engines. If you own one of them you too should be concerned. Air cooled Porsche owners are aware of this as well.

 

In my old cars I use Diesel Engine Oils, they are also compatible for Gasoline or spark ignition engines. They have everything that I need for wear and corrosion protection, which is important as these cars are not driven regularly.

I have used Shell Rotella T 15W40, Mobil Delvac Super 1300 15W40, because of their sale prices and availability. I don't use synthetics, because I change them for time duration, rather than miles travelled, so these conventional or dino oils are more than adequate.

There are new specs, for these Diesel Oils today, that also reduce anti-wear additives. I have read that they have been reformulated using other additives, that will even improve them over the old spec oils. Time will tell...

Ciao...Paolo

 

Charlie
Thanks for your post and yes I would be interested in the rest of your info. BTW welcome to the Chat line.

 

Charlie,

I would be interested too. Thanx.

Mark