308 V12 conversion begins

My favorite thread had disappeared to page 2!!!

What happened??

You're not being distracted by such annoying things like life (or wife) are you???



Hans

 

Yes, family stuff. I've got more family stuff tonight, but I should be making stuff again tomorrow. I really want to be ready to weld Saturday - the welding needs time for pre and post heating and the actual wok so it has to be a weekend.

Then on Sunday my Mother-in-law who has been here helping with little Victor for nearly 6 moths and has been a godsend to have around is leaving..……things will be slowing down after Sunday when Lana and I have to learn to handle the baby ourselves

 

Oh boy, you're in for one!

Diapers
Feeding time
Why is that baby crying?
I wanna sleep!

Good luck!!!

(Cheer up, it's going to be a lot more fun when they grow a bit older. My son is 5 now and wants to go "racing" with Dad in the Ferrari )

 

Man, I thought I was a sucker for punishment.
Here is my idea to make my 308 faster:
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Please start you own thread! I'm sure I'm not the only one who wants to know all about it.

 

Oh....that's a lot of work. It's looking good though.

My only negative comment is that sure doesn't look like any ferrari engine I've ever seen ???

I keep thinking about a space frame and light weight body panel....then I say scr*w it and add hp instead

 

Yeah no kidding what kind of engine is that?

 

Yeah, I know, it's not Ferrari powered anymore.
I've been hesitant to post anything on it after seeing how hard people get flamed around here.
It's actually a Cadillac Northstar with dry-sump conversion. I had access to a Mondial t (348) drivetrain at the time I crossed that bridge but I wanted the torque & long-legged gearing like driving a 550.
The Northstar has a pedigree in LeMans in their LMP car. I felt it was at least in the right spirit being an all aluminum quad-cam 32V. It does have a 90 deg. crank & not the 180 deg. of the original Ferrari engine. If possible, I would like to do a 180 deg. exhaust (space permitting) to get a more proper exhaust note (less muscle car sound).
Sorry to disappoint but I am a working man with a somewhat limited budget. Hopefully I won't have to go underground again.

 

Good choice of engines.
I hope you can top it off with the 180 degree exhaust system to make the car sound "proper" .
Please, start a thread on this car and post a link here so we can find it!

 

I understand a budget all to well and I understand an engine swap in the name of hp to stay within it. You've good a great looking project, start a thread and give us all the details, you won't get run off. You will get a few "but it's not a Ferrari any more" type posts, but I'm certain the over all response will be very positive.

 

I must say you guys are very gracious!
mk e, I didn't intend to jack into your thread & cause a hiccup........thanks for understanding & I'm out.
P.S. Best wishes on your project! I certainly understand the constraints of family & time. It's the ONE commodity I need more of! At least now I have a compatriot who knows about choosing a difficult path, biting off alot, & wondering if he got in over his head.

 

Back to your car, I think you would be quite disappointed to see the 308 rear framework with all the body & covering stripped off. It actually looks very wimpy & underbuilt. Of course a good part of that are the design restraints of needing to access & work on the transverse drivetrain (large open holes on both sides). You can witness the flex & twisting in the stock car around the upper sheetmetal shelves in the motor compartment where cracking is quite common. I have a friend who builds national level competition frames for drag cars who also is a 308 owner & he was shocked to see my stripped car.
You may want to keep that in mind in your quest for more & more power using the transverse set-up.
I took some conventional photos early on in my project that show the stock car stripped. If I can I'll try to scan them & put them up here if you would like.

 

I'd love to see the pictures if you can get them scanned.

When I got the car 7 years ago and pulled the engine to rebuild it I was literally shocked when I looked at how little frame there was and that what was there had bends and didn’t meet at the corners causing mid-member welds. The sheet metal welds up top were already cracked. Just terrible.

But I don’t do any high-speed driving, just a little autocross and that wasn’t the problem I was trying to solve, so I fixed the welds and put the engine back in the car. I like your solution better than mine.

 

I'd be interested in seeing more of your car, don't worry about the "it's not a Ferrari anymore comments". I've thought of building a Big Block Injected Chevy powered 308 (Norwood)using a scrape chassis or starting from scratch, I've started laying it out in Cad. My thoughts also about the frame looking a bit wimpy. It doesn't surprise me, when I got my 308 home last year and put it on a hoist I wasn't impressed on how they did a lot of things on these cars. Let's see more, post your own thread on your project.

 

Mark -
With the engine dropped down, will you be able to put the stock engine lid on? (With the velocity stacks sticking up I'd guess)

Sounds like it might be worth dipping into the project fund to buy a return ticket now for your mother-in-law

Can't wait to come down and see it.

-Aaron

 

Aaron! I was just thinking it was time to sent you an email and find out if you're the proud owner of a v8 rx7 yet???

I'm hoping the stock deck lid will fit and I think it will, but I haven't tried it yet....the lid's frikin heavy to lift into place alone. I need a foam core CF one like we make the formula car test panels

You're welcome any time, but obviously I recommend during pool/patio season so Christine won't be so bored.

There's talk of my father-in law taking a month or 2 shift then my mother an law coming back to relive him, but for now Lana is switching to second shift and maybe (she hopes) only working 4 days/32 hours.

 

When you guys are talking about the chassis being weak, etc., are you stopping to consider crash damage? While I dont really believe all ive heard regarding Dale Earnhardt's crash, one of the big factors cited the chassis being to ridgid. Paul Delatush had a crash last year in his 308, and while it mashed it up pretty good, he is still around to talk about it. Build the car like a tank and there is no "give" when you crash. Hopefully thats more of an "if" you crash, but still. The day will come when hopefully I can let my daughter drive my car. I think I would rather allow the car to have some flex and give and allow it to crush all around her, than send her out in something that wont give at all. If you guys are discussing some area of the chassis that wouldnt effect any of that, then please accept my appologies for my ignorance.

 

I've witness controlled crashes working for an Auto Co. and I'm well aware of crash damage. Yes your right you do want a street vehicle to crumble to absorb energy. You would be surprised on how much body parts move and stretch in a crash when your strapped in, real creepy.

In the case of Dale Earnhardt's crash three factors here, it was the sudden stop, the open face helmet, plus he wasn't wearing a Hans device that killed him. It's the sudden stop you have to worry about, it snapped his neck. His car went from 150+mph to zero suddenly, if he had a full face helmet and a Hans devise he would probably still be with us. In the case of the 308 its mainly the rear area supporting the drive train that comes to mind being wimpy. The bumpers and sheet metal are your crumble absorbing zones. When adding more horsepower and improving the handling you don't want a flexy flyer that why people start with a GTB if their going to race it.

 

As discussed:
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First of all, it's rather scary to see my name mentioned in the same paragraph as Dale Earnhardt when the topic is crashing. In my case, I am not sure how fast I was going when I spun and went into the tire wall backwards. I had just gone through turn 10 at Watkins Glen flat out in 4th gear when I lost it. I suspect the car was going somewhere around 50 -60 mph at impact (I was too busy looking at the car that was heading my way to pay much attention to the speedo). In examining the car afterwards, the frame was moved about 2 inches. I believe it would have moved further, but I have a 4 point rollbar welded in behind the seats and the firewall on the passenger side was pushed right up against it. My point is, if you want to make you car safer, make the cockpit area secure with a rollbar / rollcage and let the rest of the car crumple up and absorb the crash energy. The idea is to be able to walk away.

 

And on a completely different subject:

Mark, you mentioned that you *might* turbocharge the beast in case you'd fail to rework the TR heads and had to fall back to the original 400 heads. Not that this will happen (we all know it won't), but just for the sake of argument: How much extra heat (in terms of exhaust gas temperatures) do you reckon the 400 heads (and valves) could take?

I'm asking because of this little rather insane project that is forming in my head. It does not involve welding or anything (so you'll remain the master of insanity), but it would involve increased EGT's on a 400 engine.... Just wondering how much extra heat they'd be able to cope with while still living long and prosper.

Thanks!

Hans

 

Blasphemy Hans! There will be no turbocharger on any car of mine! Now a supercharger, that’s another story

SC or turbo, I wouldn’t think twice about adding 8 psi, over that and you need to start thinking about an intercooler, maybe better pistons and such things. 8psi will get you about a 50%, so over 500 hp.

If you need any help coming up with bad ideas to help you step it up a notch from insane to ludicrous, just let me know how I can help

 

Im sorry Paul, I really didnt mean anything more than to make a point.

Greg, I must say that is the most stripped down I have ever seen a 308, and there really isnt a lot of structure in the rear firewall once youve cut all the sheet metal away. I cant say it makes the car weak, I dont think its possible to determine without some design study. But then again, if you cut all the sheet metal away from any other car, there wouldnt be any steel tube framing left, in fact there would be ...... nothing.

Hans, if anyone can help us go from insane to ludicrous, were in the right thread.

 

You can see by the photos your crumble zone is the area behind the rear wheel, there's a lot of area there to absorb energy. Same goes for the Front. The photo with the Northstar engine, the chassis is so much better, nice job. I've always preferred coupes because their structurally stronger. You can image how weak the structure would be if the car had no roof.

 

Greg,
Even tho the WSMs have drawings of the frame, pix are much more dramatic & informative. Would greatly appreciate pictures of the front frame so we have the complete picture.

From the rear pix, it's easy to see why the GTS has inherently more body flex than a GTB. Altho, I suspect a properly designed roll cage would bring a GTS very close to a GTB, even a caged GTB.

Requestingly,
Verell