Lovely rant there Porsche.....but i've got two questions for ya. Whats a PUSHROD????? Whats a MONOLEAF???? And yes, I drive a C5 Corvette!!!
Look, I wouldn't argue with a 20 year old kid in real life and I'm not about to start doing so on ferrarichat. I think it's safe to say that GM engineers are at least as smart and GM has access to the same level of R&D then any other major manufacturer, as such, I think it's safe bet that they know what they are doing. Of course, I'm sure they would love to hear from you -- so why don't you write them a letter telling them you know how to do their job better then them? No? So, you agree that maybe, oh I don't know, sometimes not everybodies opinion no matter how loud you yell it matters? And just maybe, credentials mean something? Like, I don't know, having a degree from MIT for example? Anyway enough magazine racing, I doubt anyone here is going to be picking up a ZR1 any time soon, so till one of us does, let's just admire it from a distance.
I agree with Naab, I don't need to argue with some kid whose only education is from magazine articles... But two points. Your assumption that the volumetric efficiency of a two valve engine is 50% of that of a similar four valve engine is absurd. Volumetric efficiency is a function of displacement, engine speed and valve area, and two valve pushrod engeines do have a limit, but never is it going to be 50% of a four valve engine. Get some education before you make stupid statements... Leaf springs are not used on the Corvette race cars, because it takes longer to change them and to adjust ride height, and it would waste valuable time during testing and race prep. That doesn't mean they aren't better, the teams make a decision as to how to spend time tuning the car and coils are easier for that. Again, do some searching on the Corvette forums and on the GM racing sites and you might learn a bit.... Done
WOW you guys are sinkin LOWWWW.... how many cars have u guys built? huh? well i ride motocross and do all my rebuilds and everything myself, i rebuild a porsche engine on my own when i was 17, i rebuilt (with my friend) a 1967 firebird from the ground up when i was 16 and finished it last year, i rebuilt a 1969 corvette 350/350 (with my friends again), and we are currently putting a C5 vette suspension in it, and a tremec 5 speed tranny. and than have done miscellaneous work on all kinds of racecars...and other little projects here and there how many of you spend all your time around racecars? haha knowledge from magazines? you guys are such punks, ya ok im 19...but my 2 best friends , one is a racecar mechanic for powerslide motorsports thats located in jackson new jersey, the other is a nationally ranked racer in the SCCA in the s2000 class and is working on moving up to formula atlantic. and his dad runs a can am car, a froumla atlantic, a champ car, and has did the rolex 24 at daytona last year (that im actually watching right now) and this summer i am doing a prerun for the baja 1000...comon boys you wanna be jackasses and claim that you guys are such authorities and im not because of my age and my "magazine education"? if anyone has a magazine education, its you. (if you want me to have them pitch in on this thread i will) solofast, how about you get an education, if you dont know that 4 valves moves more air through the engine more efficiently(which is what we were talking about), than you cant be helped...as for the monoleafs comment, i could see that being true for endurance racing, but really only endurance racing...i mean i guess it would be a little more work than independant suspension... honestly im not sure exactly how much more work it would be to change out parts fast... HAHA just cuz someone has a degree from MIT doesnt mean they know jack about cars, spare my, im continuously disapointed by people that are produced in our so called "hierarchical" education system. (this is not lashing out against MIT, im just saying im not automatically giving him credit for being an authority just cuz he has an engineering degree from MIT) I never said that GM doesnt have the technology or the knowledge, they are just stubborn and dont wanna switch over...and maybe i should write a letter to them... keep swipin your credit cards boys, keep buying cars, and keep circle jerking eachother, and assumming that cuz u drive them, and pay other people to put parts on your cars and change your oil, that your an authority and come down bashing on me cuz of my age. you just sound like arrogant punk losers when you do this crap. i didnt make it personal you did. ferrarichat has become such a freakin old rich man club and if someone speaks out and tries to have a conversation and talk about different ideas and concepts or to explain something, on a topic that shouldnt be so heated about, you guys sink down SO LOW to the level of bashing on me for my age. haha im not gonna be surprised if i get my butt kicked off for a week for this...with the new regime its hard to say FastFurious: if you are serious about ur question about monoleafs and pushrods, ill explain it
Well if you have been treated unfairly I can see why from this post. Age really doesn't mean anything. I'm 18 and everyone on here has only treated me with respect and kindness. Stop using your age as an excuse.
Patrick -- I understand what it is to be a young and hot blooded guy and have a disdain for the establishment. That being said, as you get older you will realize that credentials do count for something, and a diploma is more then just a piece of paper (lest of course you'd let Joey perform open heart surgery on you -- afterall who needs to have a medical degree?). You said that you have friends who have been racing etc to know such people is a big positive and you should continue to learn as much from them as you can. However, your affiliation with them is not a substitute for the years of experience they have and does not make you qualified to speak on the same level as them. Finally, I have seen your write-up on your firebird buildup and was very impressed. Clearly you know your way around a wrench and should be proud of that. However, like Jason, don't forget that being young means that you should learn from people who have been around the block a few times. -N
Your best friend's dad does what? That really counts for a lot around here ;-) Some advice: Take a deep breath and count to ten. Don't get emotional. Try to keep your posts short, to the point, informative, and legible. and finally, Don't be so insecure!
FastFurious: if you are serious about ur question about monoleafs and pushrods, ill explain it[/QUOTE] No thanks. I know the basics and was just being sarcastic. I drive my car. And if my car drives well, and rides well , then I am happy. I dont know the difference between engines other then Horsepower. I dont know the difference between suspension systems, nor do I care much. My car is meant to be driven and driven hard. It makes appearances at Watkins Glen, Lime Rock , Englishtown and soon to be Atco. I know pretty much nothing about the mechanics of the car and dont really have the time to learn. Plus with all the computerized aspects of the car, I feel its best left to those that know to work on my cars. If you need someone to change tires quick or install a harness bar, then I can do that. Same with interior bull**** pieces. But like I said, the mechanics are left to the Professionals out in Amityville!!
This is a really strange discussion. It's obvious that the reason why GM continues to use the same antiquated technology is due to COST. In a Corvette, you have a very high performing car for a very low price. How else do you keep the cost down? How can you expect GM to be profitable if they are as innovative as Porsche with their Corvettes? They couldn't possibly be. For what it's worth, pushrod V8s and leaf-springs may not be the latest and greatest technology, but they do their jobs really well in the Corvette. High power output, high handling threshold. The LS-series engines are used in so many different cars, I wouldn't know where to start. Why mess with something that works and delivers everything the customer is asking for just because you want newer technology that 99% of consumers have no clue about? With cars like the Z06 putting out over 500hp, revving to a max of 7k RPM and delivering very respectable fuel economy, where is the need to do an overhaul? I don't see it. I bet this post gets overlooked
Naveed and Ed, don't take my comments the wrong way, I didn't say anything in hatred towards these car's, just my personal preference. You guy's know i'm a car guy as a whole, not a brand whore. My PERSONAL preference in a Z06, for a major part, is the race bred motor in the Z06, sort of like the dry sump motors in the Porsche GT cars and turbo's that are derived from the Porsche GT1 Super/Race car.. The C6 motor is great, obviously, but its a built up C6 motor with a blower. I would have loved to see them do something with the other, but due to its compression and so on I guess it wasn't worth the risk even with a rebuild of some components. I would take the Z06 given the same price for both. Yea the ZR1 is more blingy and glorified, has 600 hp GREAT, what about the added weight, WITH a CF roof shell, ceramic rotors and so on? No excuse for that, the Z06 is a more pure bred, focused racer to me and purpose built!
jason- i never said anything about my age until it was brought up against me, and im not makign excuses for anything. im fed up of the crap. ur in the "club" man, u take pictures of thier cars, go on all the runs, know all of them. me? i just miscellaneously post my thoughts on here now and than and maybe show up for a run just to see the cars, so im just an outsider...and when they start loosing an argument they gotta sink down the level of "oh hes only 19 how mcuh can he know..."...notice no one has said anything about my response to solofast?? haha they cant discredit me on the facts, so instead it turns into "well hes just a kids and reads magazines, he has no hands on experience" which i do have. Nabbs-...u dont get my point about the degree was, for all i know he could be for chemical engineering or something. second of all i am heading to school in september become a mechanical engineer(if i didnt think it was worth something i wouldnt get one), AND ACTUALLY have started reading and swiping notes FROM MIT to get ready ( its a cool website if anyone wants it). secondly, just cuz ur an engineer doesnt mean u know much about car as for my friends i dont think u get it...all 3 of us have been raised on cars, and spend all our time working on cars together, and all have the same level of imput im not the tag along friend who claims he knows it cuz they do. sure i go to thier races, and help get the cars ready (only because i cant afford the time or money to do it myself but i am trying to), my point was my friends are not my credit, it was that cars is wat we do, almost all the time. I am currently waiting to get my foot in the door of racing, hopefully this summer ill get a racecar license. and im sure if u wanna hear it from him he will post on here. considering cars and motorcycles are all i work on and talk about in my free time with my friends and not to mention the all the books i read on various race cars, engines, suspension set ups, ect...and actually i have attended bertil roos's race schools as well, and sat in on all the lectures... SO YES i am qualified to speak on the same level as them and another thing i asked the one who is a racecar mechanic, and he told me that i was right about my remarks about pushrod vs DOHC...and i can look it up if you want too. tell me, who here has been around the block? who here drives race cars? who here works on cars? who here has changed thier own damn oil? there are probably are barely a handful. and dont worry, i do listen to people who have been around the block, but they dont post on ferrarichat. Fastfurious-i figured u were being sarcastic, and i want to make this clear for everyone here for the last time I APPRECIATE THE OLD STUFF, AND I TRULY LOVE CORVETTES, I JUST WANTED SOMETHING NEW OUT OF THE FREAKIN ZR1 THAT IS ALLL!!!
I know im a newb here, but i can understand what porscheturbo is saying. I mean not only saying that i believe a DOHC is a better more innovative new technology for a reason (which it is) But also, the original ZR-1 was a DOHC, which leaves me really dissapointed. To say the least, i dont believe it deserves the name.
Your name is 996TTurbo and you don't understand where the ZR-1 is coming from? It's comparable to a 911 turbo. Think of the Z06 as a GT3.
WRONG, its suppose to be a badder more track worthy/faster Z06, hence the carbon ceramic brakes, CF this and that, suspension tweaks and so on. Does it have 2 extra seats? Its not a GT car !
That's what you think/want it to be. What does the seat count have to do with it being a GT or not? I guess a Bugatti Veyron is a hard-core track machine and definitely not a GT all because it has only two seats. Hey, a 599 is also not a GT due to its seat count despite the fact that Ferrari claims it is a GT. CC brakes, "CF this and that", suspension tweaks are ALL things you would find on a 599 or 911 turbo. Does that make those cars track machines? Not necessarily. GTs are supposed to perform highly , just in more comfort.
whats wrong guys? cat got your tounge? u make all these comments about my knowledge about cars, and dont respond to the comments about cars and instead lash out saying im only 19, and i have no experience other than wat ive read in magazines?? but than u dont even respond to my previous post where i posted facts, some that i took from you guys (the engine weights)...common if im so wrong tell me why? after all i am suppose to be learning from you guys since you all have so much experience with racing and building cars
i actually just realized how rude im being to NipTuck and all other here to read about the ZR1 and have a conversation, im sorry for contributing to the hijacking your thread, it was'nt my intention, but i get offended when people make it personal. I'd like to divert this back to a technical discussion about the ZR1. Im sorry -pat
PTurboS.. fwiw here are a couple of articles on the merits of pushrod engines: http://www.caranddriver.com/columns/8025/the-pushrod-engine-finally-gets-its-due.html http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=19&article_id=3727&page_number=2
First off...let me get this straight because everyone keeps ignoring it, i appreciate vettes, i appreciate pushrod engines, i can even appreciate monoleaf springs i have actually read the first one before... its a very good article, i just read the second one for the first time and i rather like it too. the first articulates exactly what i was trying to make clear in an earlier post, Pushrod engines make power off of displacement, than have one intake valve, so they make up for the lack of air by increasing the displacement, which is why they cant and will never be able to rev up high... "Although you could design a V-8 engine that uses pushrods to operate four valves per cylinder, the layout lends itself to using just two. Four valves generally have greater total valve area than two, thus creating greater airflow and more power. In the case of the Chevrolet Corvette Z06 and its pushrod two-valves-per-cylinder 405-hp, 5.7-liter V-8, Winegarden says, "We've been able to meet the performance requirements by using more displacement. Two more valves per cylinder would get us another 10 percent in total valve area.A modern engine is a dizzying array of compromises as designers strive to meet power, cost, reliability, and emissions demands. The Vette V-8 would ultimately have more power if it had four valves per cylinder, but it would lose ground in cost, complexity, and physical size." SOOOOO... that would mean, you could build a smaller engine, with less displacement with a double overhead cam...that would produce the same amount of HP as a Pushrod engine with a larger displacement... Porsche Cayenne S (335 hp, 4.5 liters) Cadillac SRX (320 hp, 4.6 liters) Corvette z06(405-hp, 5.7-liter V-8) so lets make this interesting....and throw some other stuff into the mix....how about...the zr1, a gt3 RS, ford gt and...idk a smart..... Corvette ZR1 (620 hp, 6.2 liters) Porsche GT3 RS (415 hp, 3.6 liters) naturally aspirated DOHC Ford gt (550 hp, 5.4 liters) 2008 smart fortwo (104 hp, 1 liter) naturally aspirated DOCH 335hp/4.5 liters=74.4... hp per liter 320hp/4.6 liters=69.57 hp per liter (i would just like to say that i wouldnt put caddy at the for front of DOHC engines) 405hp/5.7 liters=71.1 hp per liter zr1=100 hp per liter gt3rs=115.3 hp per liter Ford gt=101.9 hp per liter smart= 104 hp per liter ...HELL, the ZR1 in terms of efficiency cant even beat a naturally aspirated DOHC...good thing i didnt even use any naturally aspirated DOHC sport bike engines in the comparison....183hp per liter... EVEN WITH A BLOODY SUPERCHARGER PUSHRODS ARENT AS EFFICIENT... and personally (and the whole world of racing except the nascar hicks) believe that i would rather have an engine that is more efficient, the way technology is going, DOHC's will get lighter, and maybe they will loose that 2 inches and watever else that car and driver was talking about(but i would say porsche's flat 6's are already good contenders for external dimension vs hp)... and i simply dont see development made on an engine that simply will never be as efficient as an DOHC or a Rotary (and i know this is going to the purists out there off, but its true, just look at racing, the porsche 917 30 was 5.4 liters and made 1100 hp (and thats in nice mode) it made roughtly 1600 when good ol mark would crank it up to pass the wussy chevy powered mcclarrens on the straightaways that made a mere 750 hp with thier big mean pushrod big block chevy's that had to be 8.1 liters inorder to produce that miniscule 750 hp...so heres a challenge, name one car that can even come close to that in road racing that has a pushrod engine? our DOHC may be bigger, and a lil harder for "designrs to work around" but boy oh boy do they produce leagues more than anything that has ever come out of a pushrod engine that does anything more than go in a straight line point and case Pushrods=good double overhead cam=better and to revert back to my ORIGINAL POST...I JUST WANTED TO SEE SOMETHING NEW OUT OF THE ZR1, and i didnt necessarily mean a DOHC...a rotary would have been pretty cool too, which btw kicks any DOHC or pushrod's ass in terms of hp vs displacement and amazingly small dimensions. and also doesnt have as many parts to break as a DOHC or even a pushrod...
Looks like there are a lot of posts here... argumentative/mechanical in nature.. whatever it is.. I hardly read any of it past the first 6 posts... except for Patrick apologizing for being rude in the last post... Hey man..not sure what the talk is.. not going to read the last few pages... but..No Worries..this is the internet!!! Not a second job! no reason to get worked over anything...
One more comparision article, summary, set aside the HP per liter ratio , bang for the buck, tough to beat pushrods, : http://www.caranddriver.com/features/columns/c_d_columns/pushrods_versus_overhead_cams_part_38_modern_v_8s_from_gm_and_amg_slug_it_out_column
