Do you consider team orders cheating?

Then why does the FIA not enforce the rule every single race for every single team that does it?

 

Because it is a stupid rule and can't be enforced fairly. Apparently, 90% of those being polled don't think it's cheating...and something close to 100% of the teams in F1 probably don't think it's cheating either but they can't say that in public.

 

The solution would be for the points of the highest placed 'team' car to also be awarded to the second car. If the second car DNF'd or (arbitrarily) was not in the top 8, they could not receive the points of the highest placed car. If the team drivers ended up with the exact amount of points at the end of the season, the driver who was credited with 'true' wins would take the cup. For the podiums, obviously the top three drivers would be honoured however, points would be awarded differently.

Example

Finish Points

1) Ham 10
2)Web 8
3)Kimi 6
4)Phil 6
5)Kova 10
6)Heid 3
7)Jensen 2
8)DC 8
9)Kubica 0

etc etc

Think about it. I guarantee you'd see a 'clean' winner every race and a return to the essence of true team spirit.

 

As a matter of the rules, yes... team orders is cheating.

Do I think that it is a crap rule that should be done away with... hell yes.

 

Ask MAD MAX like it's been said it's a stupid rule ,like most of his rules inforced when it suits him..

Long winded but:

McLaren are to face an investigation by motor racing's governing body over the team orders they imposed on their drivers at the Monaco Grand Prix.

World champion Fernando Alonso and teammate Lewis Hamilton were ordered to hold position after the first round of pitstops in Monte Carlo - in a move aimed at reducing risks to secure a McLaren 1-2.

That move drew widespread criticisms in some quarters, especially from an angry British media, as it prevented Hamilton from fighting for the maiden win that he was so desperate to score


2002 Here's the FIA's official statement regarding what happened after the Austrian Grand Prix:

FIA statement

As has already been reported this morning Ferrari's Jean Todt, Michael Schumacher and Rubens Barrichello appeared before the FIA to discuss Ferrari's actions on the day of the Austrian Grand Prix. Following the meeting the FIA announced that Ferrari, Schumacher and Barrichello would be fined one million dollars, half to be paid now, and half should a similar incident as what took place in Austria take place again within the next 12 months.

Below is the full statement issued by the FIA regarding the meeting and their findings:

FIA Statement
Having studied the observer's report and heard the three parties concerned, Rubens Barrichello, Michael Schumacher and Scuderia Ferrari Marlboro, the World Motor Sport Council resolved as follows.

The race
The WMSC deplored the manner in which team orders were given and executed at the Austrian Grand Prix. Nevertheless the Council finds it impossible to sanction the two drivers, because they were both contractually bound to execute orders given by the team. The Council also recognised the long-standing and traditional right of a team to decree the finishing order of its drivers in what it believes to be the best interest of its attempt to win both World Championships.

In the circumstances, the Council decided; with some reluctance; that it could take no action over the team orders given by Scuderia Ferrari Marlboro at the Austrian Grand Prix.

The podium
The podium procedure was not followed. Having finished second, Rubens Barrichello, who is a Brazilian national, stood on the top step while the German national anthem was played for Michael Schumacher. Michael Schumacher then ascended the top step and both drivers, rather than just the winner, stood there while the Italian national anthem was played.

Michael Schumacher took the trophy for first place from the Austrian Chancellor, did not acknowledge him, handed the trophy to Rubens Barrichello and then took the second place trophy from the Austrian Deputy Chancellor. It is the duty of each team to ensure that its contracted drivers observe the podium procedures and do not in any way embarrass the national authorities of the country where a grand prix takes place.

The World Motor Sport Council held that Rubens Barrichello, Michael Schumacher and Scuderia Ferrari Marlboro were each guilty of failure to observe Article 170 of the Formula One Sporting Regulations. The World Motor Sport Council imposed a fine of $1 million on Scuderia Ferrari Marlboro, Michael Schumacher and Rubens Barrichello jointly, half to be paid immediately and half to be suspended for one year. The fine will become payable immediately should a similar offence occur within the next twelve months.

 

That was because Ferrari made it look too obvious. You cant do it like that and then trade spots on the podium. Some people consider Jaun Fangio one of the greatest drivers ever....Should we still consider him one of the best ever when back in those days when Fangios car failed on the track a teammate would pull over and give him his car. Could you imagine that now....MS would never have lost a race.

What im getting at is that we have to use common sense here. A couple of you are pushing the point only with Ferrari's last race but not anyone else who pulled the same thing. Either call everyone for it or nobody.....you cant pick and choose....Again what kills me is that you guys call youselves Tifosi......If so call it both ways.

 

There are two possible solutions to the dilemma:

1) Teams can announce #1 and #2 drivers. #1 drivers are designated as the team's championship contender and #2 drivers are obligated to move over for them. This solves the problems created by Austria as fans would know ahead of time that Rubens would not be allowed to win. I don't think folks were as upset about the startegy as they were by its implementation.

2) Allow team orders for everyone if one of the drivers is mathematically eliminated from contention. No one should be surprised if Massa pulls over for Kimi if Massa has already been eliminated from the title chase. The other outrage stemming from Austria is that it happened so early into the season. Had this been the last race of the season with the title on the line, not one person would have been surprised by Rubens moving over.

 

Well I did, I posted Mc under the FIA cosh last year at the Monaco Grand Prix. Ferrari took the p'ss thats why the rule came into affect I "THINK" sure will stand corrected though.

We can go round in circles with this, but if it's written down in the rule book whatever way you look at it, it's cheating/breaking the rules IMO.

I'am not sticking up for Mc just because it is Ferrari that showed it up for what it is in the first place.

 

Yep number 2 ,I would be happy with that.

 

Agree 100%

 

team orders will always be there. The rule needs to be re-written

 

Because they implemented the rule just so they could say they "did something", even though they didn't really do anything.

Sort of like making suicide illegal... it's not going to change anything and you can't really do anything about the people that break the rule, but it makes everyone feel better that we "did something" even though the rule didn't do anything at all.

 

This bugs me when you constantly bring this up.

I can toss it right back at you when you say you will stop your support of the team if XYZ driver is hired. How is that a "true" fan? And all the yapping about how Kimi is a "cancer" and a drunk and doesn't deserve to be on the team. Spoken as a true fan?

Someone can be a fan of a team and not blindly think they can do no wrong. I cannot understand the mental process that occurs in someone's mind that they come upon a situation and before using any brain cells to think about it, they decide that their decision is already made because the group they support has made their mind up for them. Thats brainwashed. The same as the political supporters who see issues the same way in every instance as their chosen party. It's sad to see.

I'd rather discuss things with people who have a viewpoint to share. If that viewpoint is "everything Ferrari does is right, everything anyone else does is wrong, end of discussion" well then I'd rather have a conversation with my dog who could offer up some more intelligent discourse than said poster. I'm not saying you I am saying anyone who uses the "how can you say that and call yourself a fan" argument.

 

+1 to infinity

 

well said - couldnt agree more.

 

+1

 

But Formula 1 has dual championships, one for Constructors and one for Drivers. Formula 1 is a team sport first, and for the cost of playing teams should have the right to structure their own strategy to maximize their team's potential. McLaren and Williams have always adhered to this philosophy. It's not always a popular one because it paints a callous attitude towards the drivers. But the reason Formula 1 drivers are paid millions of dollars is to better the fortunes of the team. There's a bit of a Tifosi backlash brewing on this thread I feel, but even in the case of Ferrari and Michael this applies. The only difference is, Michael never had a teammate that could compete with him. On any given day, Mika and DC could rival eachother in the McLaren, or Ralf and Montoya at Williams. But Michael was secured to bring glory back to Maranello through team championships. And as part of his demands, he pre-arranged any driver issues about who's #1. There was never any doubt that, given a top car, the Driver's titles would accompany the glory. But these teams aren't in the business to achieve individual accomplishments.

 

We've watched team orders in effect for eons, that's why we've become relatively apathetic towards their usage and subsequent degradation of the sport. Unless there's a rule change, point change or something else that suitably nullifies the gains made from a team manufacturing a win for one of its drivers, we're spinning wheels. There are enough inequities in the sport already, we shouldn't continue to witness what amounts to the sanctioning of loaded dice.
Team orders might not be considered cheating but it is deplorable in countless ways.

 

You make good points.. Is

 

The constructors' championship is a team affair and should be won by the best team. But arranging the order in which the team's drivers finish races has little or no impact on a team's points score. The drivers' championship, theoretically, should be an individual rather than a team affair and it should be won by the best driver/car combination. The application of team orders has the effect, potentially, of allowing a driver/car that was not the best to win the championship.

If you are saying that McLaren and Williams have always used team orders that's just not correct.

Team orders is wholely about individual accomplishments, they are used to ensure that one individual driver scores the maximun possible number of points, although clearly the team gets a bit of the glory if the WDC was driving their car. Part of the problem may be that the WCC nowadays is of secondary importance to the WDC, that's where most of the glory and publicity is to be had, so teams do what they can to ensure their man wins the WDC, sometimes at the expense of fair competition.

 

Based on FIA implementation, it's pretty clear:

It's only cheating if it widens the gap -- it's not cheating if it makes the championship closer.

It's all about "the show".

 

Apparently you are new here and don't know much about the folks on here.

We are more open-minded than to base our thoughts ONLY as they pertain to Ferrari, and folks here have 'called out'
Ferrari on quite a few occasions.

The only 'team orders' I don't like is when one team strikes a 'deal' to pull over and let another driver from another team pass by, like in nascar all the time. If the guy is so damned fast, let him work his way by....

 

uumm, yeah Frank, I must be new........

and no, for the most part this is not an open minded, objective forum...........when you're around a little longer you will understand, ok kid........


and funny how the "team orders" you don't like are the same type that Ferrari always uses......

 

Who says they don't? RD?

 

Yep -- right about the same time he said that Alonso's pit blocking move in Hungary was because Hamilton wasn't following team orders ....