I know him; but since he showed me little bit arrogance about what he all learned from his dad's 308 QV I didn't care about future contact. In my opinion this chain conversion thing just absolutely fails regarding any market demand. How much belts and tensioners can you replace for the money of this conversion ? And I have concerns about power loss due to increased mass moments of intertia. Moreover 308s are getting more and more regarded as classic cars over here and such things will definitely decrease the value of a car. At least noone seriously interested in a 308 will appreciate such things. There are SOOO much ideas about making an older Ferrari more reliable. But I tell them all; if you refuse to live with the status quo and if you are still not satisfied with a well maintained car, buy a Mercedes or Porsche. But this is just my personal opinion; in my own engineering business I put my ideas into development of new machinery and don't waste time with questionable ' improvements ' of well-tried old technique. Best Regards from Germany Martin
Hmm: double row chains, and babble's "toothed belt" has my imagination running. What about esoteric material belts? Materials that would permit sprocket belts? Or double sprocket belts: so if one goes, the other will keep the cams aligned? (Maybe FChat should apply for funding from LdM as a "think tank" R&D department. ) Would it be easier to convert a 3x8 to a double row "ribbed" belt, like the current single one? With narrower belts, it might not be all that big a change to the stock block. Would it help, or would a snapping belt take out the second one? How much of a "shield" between them would you need to prevent that?
Chains aren't the end-all solution that we'd like them to be. They can break although it's more common to see them just wear out. Sprocket teeth get "pointy", guides wear down and chains "stretch" (often resulting from a tiny amount of wear at each link roller). Most have a "Master Link" and those are known to come apart occasionally. The whole mess generally runs in oil making it a little harder to inspect or service. It can make a lot of racket especially if it becomes loose. Maintenance will ultimately be considerably more expensive when it finally happens. I generally prefer engines with chains to those with belts but my personal experience has not shown belts to be generally problematic. Chains are "Old School" as are carburettors and distributor ignition and fall neatly in my "comfort zone".
Since you are interested, why don't you just contact them to inquire the price & post it here. Here's the contact info you could have easily obtained from their web site: Sven-Martin Osterroth, Lucas-Cranach-Str. 2, D-97337 Dettelbach Tel.: 09324-3682 Fax: 09324-9823384 Mobil: 0170-2982424 E-mail: [email protected] Steuer Nr.: 227/256/70110 USt.-IdNr.: DE241531634
That's OK, I personally haven't seen a broken cam belt yet, but saw broken timing chains on Jag 3.2 & 4.2 liter DOHC sixes after 100K miles or so. I've also seen chain systems with worn drive gear teeth on that greatly reduced chain life. IMHO, the smg2 improved belt system adequately addresses the belt reliability concerns. However, if you're into chains, here's your solution.
I have sent an email asking about the conversion. I sent both an English and a babblefied German version, hopefully something will make it past the language barrier
I have personally broken 2 cam belts. 1 in a fiat, 1 in a ford....now I change them when they're due I am a big fan of chains. They they do still ned to be replaced at about 100k just like modern belts, but are free of the time between service factor that drives most ferrari belt changes.
I'm also a believer in timely cam belt replacement. Umm, I forgot, my '75 Chev Vega's cam belt went after 120,000 miles or so. It wasn't an interference engine, & was on it's last legs anyway. I was trying to stretch a few more cheap months out of it before scrapping the car. As it turned out, the timing was great, I got a fantastic deal on a '82 Rx7 with a whopping 7500 miles on it. Got me back into real sports cars after a 10 year gap! I just don't buy that a chain conversion is worthwhile, & wonder if the chain system's extra weight would introduce noticable throttle response lag. I also wouldn't advocate a belt conversion of a chain drive system unless there were strong performance benefits expected. Also, since it's a new & unproven system I'd recommend letting someone else find the low occurrance rate bugs that the 308 chain drive developer hasn't seen yet. BTW, GM just put a big vote of confidence in cam drive belts, the all new 5.8 L Chevrolet R07 NASTAR race engine uses one!!! A belt failure during a race would be seen on national TV.
Jeeez...... just looked at the address you posted Verell. It's about 14 miles from where I live. Nice little medieval walled town which I've visited a few times. I'll be happy to go over there in the next week or two if anyone would like me to check it out personally.
There's also a Ferrari etc. dealership in Dettelbach (near Wurzburg): http://www.saggio.de/s-wuerzburg1.html The town: http://www.dettelbach.de/sites/gensite.asp?SID=cms150220080748007299463&Art=0646
Verell; that's what I meant with the suspected increased mass moment of intertia. And I agree further with you. From a technicians point of view this converision is a certain risk. If not tested thoroughly over an extended time period, throwing such an extensive alteration to a fairly complex system onto the market, could result in an economic catastrophe. And regarding the - at least european - philosphy of the classic car market, to which the 308s undoubtedly belong nowadays, such conversion means a decrease in value and desirability of a car. Despite the developer underlines, that the conversion can be reverted to the original layout. It's more and more originality, what counts regarding those cars. More and more people consider them as a contemporary piece of art overall. And a contemporary piece of engineering of the 70s era. Why trying to 'improve' them to modern standards ? I know, that's a bit different in the US. A story in the current Forza issue about a 512 BBi confirms this. If I want high performance, I have to purchase a modern sportscar. This is especially true in Germany with our speed limit free Autobahn. Moreover; why complaining about reliability ? The 308s are VERY reliable if maintained well. I have seen examples which received minimal maintenance and care during their whole life. They are in the high kms range and are running perfectly. So why bother ? Best Regards from Germany Martin
Mark, give me a call at home. I'm going to meet with him tomorrow morning if you want to come along. Erich
Erich, Yeah. When I saw the address I about fell outta my chair too. Sounds great. Let me double-check w/ Household-6 and I'll get back to you. Did you need a clutch alignment tool? If so, check your PMs. Mark
I'm going to discuss flywheel lightening, performance clutch etc. with him (his normal job is with Sachs in "your" hometown ;-) Of course I will ask about the chain conversion also but I have no plans for that with my car because I don't mind doing the belt and bearing changes. I stopped by the Ferrari etc. dealership in Dettelbach. Saw a matte black Enzo with red mirrors..... sweet )
I don't understand why response and acceleration would suffer...can you explain, please? Thanks, Mike in Kuwait
like already mentioned; mass moment of inertia is the keyword. When you rev the engine you have to accelerate all the moving parts inside the engine. A chain drive is heavier than a belt drive. These additional masses add to the overall masses which have to be accelerated inside the engine. And the power you need for this subtracts from the overall power-output of the engine. Like Paul states, a gear drive would be the worst, because in addition it adds a lot of friction to the calculations. Best Regards from Germany Martin
Martin, thanks for the explaination...as a follow-up, is the amount of friction that significant that it would be seriously noticable? I seems to me that, with the technology today, the friction could me minimized with, I don't know, coating, or ceramics, or something... I don't know...I'm not an engineer...just wondering. Mike in Kuwait
