+1 That was one of the purpose to this thread. Also, if there are other similar "Technology" out there, please feel free to post them up as well. Thanks guys!
With a 3 liter, possibly but with enough horsepower you wouldn't know the difference, especially with your head planted in the headrest..............
Well, the Spica Alfas have dual cam chains and an injection timing belt. But I agree that chains and belts sounds kinky.
A Dodge Neon has belts and chains involved in the valve-train? That would surprise me greatly but is that true? This car has a single cam belt with tensioner but dual cam chains as well. No tensioners. Yes it's Italian. Bob S.
Well .. today I met fellow F-Chatter mwr4440 (Mark W.R.) for the first time along with his son Steven. We went to visit Sven-Martin Osterroth at his home in Dettelbach. We spent about an hour and a half with him. First let me say there is no doubt hes a Ferrari enthusiast Originally his plan was to open a full-time business with belt to chain conversion, special flywheel and clutch work etc. However he got a job offer from Sachs that was too good to turn down. Hes a development engineer working in their racing division and is involved with the clutch system for the Toyota Formula 1 team. The belt to chain conversion, flywheel/clutch projects are a secondary job he does on his own when time permits. Heres the most important information regarding the belt to chain conversion it is not a kit you can buy and, for example, have mailed to you. He does the work on your car himself at home. So if youre in the States or somewhere else far from here thats a factor. The price for the conversion is around 5000~6000 Euro depending on the model, time required etc. I had a look at his 1983 308QV (GTB!) on which he installed this system. It looked well-made and well thought out. A/C compressor and other original parts remain. Incidentally, they bought the 83 GTB in 85 so it has been in the family for some time. Mark and I were like a couple of giddy schoolgirls in his basement and workshop. The workshop/machine shop is well-equipped. His 308 was up on jack stands in one room for the winter. In another room were his 93 512TR, and a classic Alfa (Giulietta?) that he sometimes races in hill climbs etc. Then there was the green 1952 XK120 Jag. that he and his father spent four years restoring from the dead. The attention to detail and quality of workmanship are outstanding. Scattered throughout the basement were classic motorcycles in various states of restoration. It really was kid in a candy shop syndrome for Mark and me. Cylinder heads here and there, flywheels, clutch parts, large pieces of metal waiting to be turned into something automotive etc. In the garage was an Alfa Spider awaiting some restoration and a 328 engine. He showed us a special freewheeling flywheel that he has patented etc. etc. I dont know when they find time to work on all these projects or drive the beautiful cars but his father is retired now so that helps. Thats not to say he doesnt stay busy down in the workshop! I guess its a hard job but somebody has to do it I will be contacting him once again when I get my flywheel off in a few weeks regarding getting it lightened and maybe alternative clutch disc friction materials. Anyway, it was a great morning for Mark, his son and I. We very much enjoyed meeting Sven-Martin and we learned some interesting things and got some good tips. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
Was just thinking.... a conversion of the 348 engine to either twin belts like the 308 etc. or twin chains might not be a bad idea.
It was really a great time meeting a fellow F-Chatter (eulk328) and spending some time with him, Sven and my son. I am a geo-bachlor due to my job, so anytime I can do something with my son (and wife too, not along on this trip though) that I love, like being around F-Cars and the people that love them, really makes my day!!!!! Eulk328, it was great and we GOT to do that "Meet & Greet" with Sven and the other F-Car owners in the area this spring/summer. I had no idea there were so many other F-Car owners around; one of the best kept secrets of Unter Franken. It'll be great too I am sure. Sven and his belts-2-chains mod is for real. He is not some guy who happens to own a Ferrari (or two) and dabble in engineering as a hobby. He is an automotive engineer who brings vast amounts of cutting-edge technology to both his job and passion. I may have misunderstood but I thought I heard him say that the products he develops for/with Sachs are used by almost all the F1 teams to include Ferrari, not just Toyota. Anyway the workmanship of all the components appeares to be second to none. It all looked as if it were OEM. I was astounded. The workmanship on the other cars/motorcycles was exemplary as well. On his Belts-2-Chains conversion he said he had about 10K Kilometers on the set-up on his car so far with no problems to date. He drove the car along with some other owners from north Bavaria to Maranello and back with no problems. From the way he was explaining it, it appears that he had taken everything other posters here have mentioned as "Challenge areas" to this conversion, under due consideration, and came up with a solution. He even mentioned having to come up with fixes for some things that no one here has mentioned yet. He explained that he would very much like to make a DIY kit that could be ordered but his job at Sachs and the fact that each car is just a little bit different and might require a bit of machining to make all the parts fit as they should, prevent him from doing it at this time. All-in-all I was dutifully impressed. If anyone has figured a way to make this work Sven has, and I or eulk328 will report back from time to time on how his conversion is holding up. mwr4440
The question should be how can people with cam chain cars convert them to cam belts. Belts are lighter, quieter, are less parasitic, are cleaner running, require less maintenance and are cheaper to produce, buy and change. This whole cam belt scare is a crock propagated by FNA and others that profit from our fears. As long as you car is regularly driven and the cam belts and tensioner bearings changed every 50k miles or 7 to 10 years you will be just fine. Of course you should keep a watchful eye and ear out for anything unusual such as belt fraying or more importantly bearing noise coming from the front of the engine. FYI, you can hear a bearing starting to go bad well before its complete failure. Yet another reason not to just get in your Ferrari and turn the stereo up loud and take off. I often start my Boxer in the garage with the rear bonnet up and listen, sticking my head all around the engine compartment...you can even use a mechanic's stethoscope to stick down in front of the engine directly over the tensioner bearings...it's not rocket science...if a bearing is going bad you can hear it's roughness...it sounds rough..kinda like it has grit in it...if the bearing is good it has a very slick smooth sound...will a few belts fail out of the tens of thousands of cam belt Ferrari's out there?...sure... but it will be a very low percentage...I would say well less than 1%... and to spend $5k to $10k to change the belts because the ones who profit most from your changing them is foolishness IMHO. The average middle age Ferrari owner's chances of dying from a heart attack or stroke are much higher than their cars having cam belt failure...
I might get flamed for this, but it's just MY opinion; my understandings of engineering is and ever was development and refinement of current and future technology. Why someone who is inside this business rapes a contemporary piece of well-tried engineering is beyond me. But maybe it's related to the age of someone. I have to earn the complete living for me and my family with mechanical engineering since 18 years - and 13 years with my own business - and have no time for such jokes. Also beyond me is why so much folks think, that they do a better job, than the colleagues in Maranello. Modesty is a virtue. Best Regards from Germany Martin
Bob Norwood has done a couple chain to belt conversions I think. It's much simpler than the belt to chain conversion.
Tell Ferrari that they should change the 430 from chains back to belts I have no issues or fear with belts. I've driven various Fiats, Fiat-Abarth, Lancias, Seats etc. with timing belts for many, many years. Never had a problem. As far as timing belts being quieter.... I don't think it's an issue with cars like these. They're noisy to start with. I just changed the single timing belt on my quad-cam Saab v-6. Now THAT was a horrific job. Made the Ferrari belts change seem like a piece of cake. I'm not talking about access to the belts but the alignment and tensioning procedure. I always wonder when I see car companies doing some things. Porsche and Alfa seem to introduce twin-sparkplug engines now and then, make a big hoopla and then they disappear for a while. Mercedes comes out with a single windshield wiper for a while then it's back to two etc. etc. Seems like fashion as much as anything. For me, I found the chain drive project interesting as I do the supercharger projects and V-12 conversion. Engineers no doubt have imaginations too and probably need to challenge themselves in various ways. Maybe it could be called "building a DIFFERENT mousetrap." And..... I think..... having options is always a good thing.
what an illusionary world we have. The first of all questions is; does anyone want to have this, or better said; is anybody ready to pay a certain amount of money for this ? If the answer is negative, we tackle the next project. Another designation for engineers is 'problem-solvers'. But this only applies to problems, which really exist, and not problems, which are made by the engineers themselves. Also an engineer has to earn money; or which fairy tale book tells anything different ? In serious applications repeated 'mousetrap development' leads into unemployment. Without exception. Best Regards Martin
Martin, Consider yourself flamed From a purest's perspective, I can understand your point. From an engineer's perspective, I cannot. An engineer such as yourself, might not like the idea but at least you can appreciate the level of engineering effort that went into this. I also assume you disagree with people turbo-ing, supercharging, new headwork, re-piston-ing, etc., these older cars as well. The engineers from Maranello were/are very good, but not necessarily geniuses either. If you haven't torn apart your car yet, give it a try. You will find all kinds of kooky and goofy things that had to have been designed and desided over a spagetti and wine dinner with an extra helping (or three or four) of wine. Occasionally you'll find the reverse too but that seems to happen less frequently. Just so no one misunderstands, I was the one singing Sven's praises for some darn fine engineering/machine work in an area of interest that has seen its share of posts (my one and at least 4 or 5 more since I have been here on F-Chat alone). During our visit, never once did Sven say anything or come across as anything less than quite humble and eager to share information and to help. Heck we were talking about his 512TR timing belts and I mentioned that I have to do mine and I have NEVER done them on any car before. He didn't hesitate inviting me down to help me change out my timing belts, and didn't mention even jokingly, to sell his conversion to me. I am going to learn a lot from this guy........ mwr4440
o.k.; I disagree once more. An idea is not good, because it is complicated. Best ideas are those, which are simple and everyone wants to pay money for them. And yes; I have torn apart my 308 GTB and still think, that the design is great. What's not so great, is sometimes the build quality. But noone is forced to buy an old italian car. Prior to his engineering studies, Sven wanted to become a lawyer and had - as far as I know - almost finished or completely finished his jus studies. Maybe it's this ? I know many attorneys who create problems to solve them then And yes; I disagree with people, who want to improve decades old technology to modern standards. I enjoy my Ferrari and '72 Alfa as classic cars and with decent maintenance I'm very happy with the state of technology of the 70s. They witness a certain era of engineering. I don't want to falsify that. Moreover; I don't know if you are aware about the requirements to gain a 'classic car registration' in Germany. Do you know the 'H-plates' ? That requires, that the alterations of the original conditions are VERY minor. It's just two more years till I can get those 'H-plates' for my 308 GTB and such extensive alternations to a car may lead to a refusal. I'm not sure about the chain conversion, but absolutely sure, that a 308 GTB with turbo-conversion or a V-12 engine will NOT receive the 'classic car registration'. My challenges I find with my daily business. Besides from that I love memorials. It also has something to do with style and taste. But this is a different subject. Best Regards Martin
Martin, As a counterpoint more than flame...............in my own opinion. I think RAPE is a little strong for what you describe. As with any engineered part or system, THERE IS ALWAYS ROOM FOR IMPROVEMENT. That is an inescapable fact and any engineer that thinks his design cannot be improved upon is the one that needs to be humbled. There is always a smarter guy with a better design out there. I am around advanced engineering everyday and because of the nature of business there are a number of factors that point to why engineering of any specific product isn't necessarily engineered as well as it could be, ESPECIALLY IN MARANELLO. It's about MONEY and "PRODUCABILITY". There is always a battle between the engineers and bean counters. Simply put, in many cases the better something is engineered, or more intricate it is, the more expensive it is to produce. The Bean Counters will force the engineers to compromise every time and the end result is, as you put it, "a contemporary piece of well-tried engineering", NOT necessarily the best.. The best example of what I offer is the British AND American motorcycle and automobile industries of the 70's and 80's. Both failed miserably because they stayed with "tried and true" or the "cheapest to produce" instead of forward thinking as well as constantly improving on their engineering and production processes. The Japanese ate them alive! There are plenty of areas of engineering that can be improved on existing Ferrari engines thanks to newer and better technology and THAT is why somebody will go in and "RAPE" perfectly good engineering that MAY have been sufficient for it's time. Being forced to accommodate crappy engineering because the Bean Counters forced the engineer to "cheap out" on his design is unacceptable to me. Of course, I'm talking about a car I am using and driving, not a museum piece or trailer queen.
I partly agree; but it is really, really no challenge to modify a 30-40 years old technology to modern standards. And who would modify pre-WW2-cars with modern technology ? Who wants to affect their value with something like that ? But I figure out; the Ferrari 308s are too young to be considered as real classic cars. Maybe it needs 10 - 20 more years till this occurs. At the moment I imagine a 250 or Daytona with such extensive modifications and its resale-value. Best Regards Martin
Martin, Again, from a purest's perspective, I agree with you. But please consider this extension of what you say above. In 30-75 years there will be NO 308s on the road any more. None, zero, zilch, nix, nada; nada darn one. IMHO, the most beautiful cars ever created bar none, will never again chew up the asphalt in such style and grace. No child or adult will be able to say they saw one on the autobahns/highways of the world, and oh... that sound! Hell, I own one and I still get goose-bumps when one goes by me or a see one somewhere. they will be gone forever to museums and fat cats with BIG money who can squirrel away such things never to be seen and appreciated again. What a waste. Taking that idea further, but much closer into the future, how long before the companies making those belts quit due to low sales? It IS going to happen. The older guys here probably won't see it but you and I might. Sven has come up with a way to skirt that eventuality. Another guy here has done the same (skirting the same eventuality) by upgrading the pullies to use very modern SVO, rounded toothed belts. Definately NOT OEM, but closer to the purest, granted. To strengthen the point, I have 3 speedos besides the one in my car. I have started collecting 308 gauges. Goofy side hobby, agreed. But odds are those 3 cars no longer exist. Lost to accident, incident, theft, fire, etc. The list of "cars in the wild" gets shorter by the day. I say do what it takes to keep them on the road for everyone to enjoy as long as possible. And that is the name of the game for most of the people here on this site from my limited experience. I don't think any one here wants a garbage qu....., oops! excuse me ........ a garage queen. And finally, taking the theme that Spasso mentioned, I doubt, any company, in any country, at any time, ever put out the BEST POSSIBLE product. Taking the entire corporate culture and constraints into account and paraphrasing a bit, I'd wager that every company's real motto is: "We don't want the best, we want the best we can afford." Respectfully,
1000s and 1000s of people would modify pre WW II cars. Modifying any car and having it come out good is always a challenge whether the car is new or old. It's certainly not what everyone would do though. (not my car but I'm thinging about something similar) Image Unavailable, Please Login
I was not directing my comments towards the historically significant cars you mention (and a slew of others) though I will say many of THOSE have been modified, especially for racing. It's the nature of the beast. Plenty of pre-WW-II cars are moderized but thankfully most of the significant cars are left alone like Alfa 2900 8C's, or the early Maserati's- Ferraris etc. Those are all much too rare, but a car of which 10,000 plus copies have been made? I don't have too many issues with that, especially when the modifications are bolt-on and easily reversible to stock configuration. In that case, who the h*ll cares? I remember my experiences with cars like a 1970 MG midget or MGB, still using "knee action" friction shocks and generators in lieu of telescopic shocks and alternators. You've GOT to be kidding!
