Does any body know what metal ferrari (TR in particular) camshafts are made for? I need to make a set of billet cams and I was wondering what the factory used. The cam grinder though 8620 would be a good choice.
Yep and she can tell you all the steps involved in making cams . .. a bunch but you're up to it I'm sure . After all the rough machining and grinding, to do it right they copper plate the cams before final "hardening" of the lobes (the copper is ground off the lobes leaving them exposed for final hardening process) . .. the copper stops the cam from getting hard at the stress risers . . . if they don't do this the cam can break when they straighten it . All this got me hoping the regrinds work/last. Because of all the steps involved with billet cams I think most mass produced cams are "chilled" castings that create a really hard skin hence no reason for all the heat treating and distortion . . .definitely don't know this for a fact . . just speculating. Sean
now you're making it sound hard ;( When I talked to the Joe at American Custom Cams he said all he needed was a rough turned blank and he would handle the rest. He wasn't sure what alloy ferrari used and though that if I could find out he recommended sticking with it but felt 8620 would be a good choice as a fall-back plan. Another comment he made which might interest you is that he wanted to know the rockwell hardness of the buckets so he could pick a hardness for the cam that would work with them to give good life without causing excessive wear.....
Depending on how big you make the new billet and what material. I think the normal way is to make the steel blank and have it copper coated (leave lobes round to make sure enough meat to grind with), semi finish the journals within .015, and then have us cut it close to the new profile, then carburize, straighten cam (I have never seen a long cam like that heat treated not bent). If he can straighten them have him do that as well. Then finish the journals and then the final process have WEBCAM finish grinding the lobes. There is a company here in the United States that makes steel Ferrari cams. It is LSM Engineering 248/674-4967 talk to Steve Lowe. From Laurie at Webcam when I was discussing my issues. The copper plating is done before the carburizing.
62-64 Rc on the shims I noticed in another email from Web she thought the stock cams were steel not chilled castings like I said above FYI
I'm not planning to use WEBCAM for cost reasons. American will do all the journal finish work, heat treatment and grind all 48 lobe for $1500, a smal fraction of the webcam price. The shop I bought my 400 engine and TR heads from recommended them and said he was very happy with the work they did for him. They have about 3000 masters to pick from including a couple TR race grinds so I should be able to find something I like. Also, I think I have a line on cheap IRL shim under bucket parts that apparently can be made to work and come with DLC applied ..here come the monster cams
Great find and price! I have a set of IRL springs and custom retainers for my next 308 motor but am steering clear of shim under buckets for now. The guy who makes the shim under buckets figured his buckets would have failed if the factory shim did FWIW. Sean
I want to get the billets made and out to him before he changes him mind I think web has dealer network and the mark-ups that go with it. I saw the wear you had with the shim under stuff and Russ had even with the shim over and I'm wondering if it's more about the weld than anything else?? Monster cams and shim under are used on all modern bikes without any problems. Clearly the IRL buckets are used in IRL without any problems. Russ found Cappo (sp) in Oz selling massive .450" lift QV cams that worked in his race engines. That brings me back the the welded lobes as the problem...I think. I don't know what else it could be???
As I got deeper into understanding what's going on with cams there is a feature called the "minimum radius of curvature" when designing cams. The small base circle of the 308 cams make this a problem. Larger duration cams don't exaggerate the problem . .. short duration high lift cams do. Because the base circle effects the overal radius and thus shape of the lobe, what works on one cam may not work on a cam with a smaller base circle. I've spoken with a few guys about this . . . one guy named Richard Moser my old boss hooked me up with who put overhead cams on a small block chevy . .. pic of his motor on the back of "How to Hot Rod Small Block Chevys". Also, back in 1995 I spoke to that guy in Texas who's pretty knowledgable . .. he too warned me about the base circle being small when experimenting with new profiles. Capo's cams have a ton of duration . .. I got some pic's of 'em. Sean
Ahhh…..the base circle…… I didn notice that Ferrari used appears to have used a constant lift/duration ratio in the 70s-80s with the 328 and TR intakes being the exception and a little more aggressive. I have the specs at home somewhere, but the Capo .450 lift grind is something like 270 degrees at .050” lift duration now that you mention it. Maybe the answer is just increase the base circle then? It should be possible to make some room if a .45 lift can be done with a stock base circle a .400 lift could be done with a .050” oversize base circle I’d think. And beehive springs that weren’t available when QVs were being raced should allow even more room. I could live with more duration on the intake too I just...I'm not sure about 270 but....
Had these goodies kicking around the shop. This is the new 4 valve P car water cooled motor. The bucket has a hydrualic valve lash adjuster underneath it. The bucket "guides" bolt into the head. Neat stuff . .. imagine this profile with a base circle .400" smaller in diameter . .. very pointed lobes. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
I got a couple little tidbits yesterday. Apparently the shim and the cam must be at least 3 Rockwell points different in hardness or you will get extreme wear....which is why the cam guy asked the shim/bucket Rockwell number. I got a story of a Daytona with HOT cams tearing the cam/buckets up in short order the finding was the cam and shims were about the same hardness. The cam was nitrited to raise the Rockwell number about 10 points above the buckets and the problem went away. The second bit is that WEBCAM apparently doesnt do all there own cam work if they in fact do any of it. It came to my attention from a fairly reliable souce that Eglin grinds at least some of the P-car cams for them. Which got me thinking about American Custom Cam who is a lot cheaper and has about the same number of cam masters that Web told me they have.....hmmmm.....
It looks like Cam cams uses 8620 (the same as the guy at american recomended) for their billet roller cams http://cranecams.com/?show=article&id=26 and I found anouther place that says their billet cams are 42C hardness.
Hello, This is Laurie at WEB CAM Racing Cams and I was noticing the comment you made. We do in fact grind all of our cams, and WE grind cams for other manufacturers. I am not sure who your reliable source was, but whomever was very wrong in that statement. We are here 5 days a week 12 hours a day and have been for over 45 years. I personally have worked here since 1983 and we take pride in our work. Check out our website at www.webcamshafts.com, and look at all of our world records and championships of which we just started the list and it is getting bigger everyday . If you or someone you know has won a race using our products please let us know so we can add your name as well. Thanks again for all of you who have supported us. Have a great week. Laurie Dunlap WEB CAM RACING CAMS
Big kudos to Laurie and Webcam - great product and customer service. I had 4 cams from them over the past few years and am extremely happy with them. I wouldn't let Dema Elgin touch anything Ferrari that you ever wanted to see again. He certainly did me wrong.
