Massa vs. Raikkonen ***Spoiler***

something has changed thought, the electronic gestion of the engine with the new ECU.

 

uhm... are we talking about the first corner incident or the manoeuvre on DC?

In the first corner, Massa made a drivingerror as did Kimi on not one but two occasions. His manoeuvre on DC was poor racecraft on DC's part, but thats how we know and love him. At least he only made himself a victim.

 

uh uh....

again I say that Martin Brundle, ex Formula 1 driver and manager of none other than David Coulthard believes Massa had the corner. Indeed, hilarious...

boy, you guys are so eager to put the blame on Massa you have no idea how entertaining you are. Well, up to a point of course. There is a point when it gets annoying. That would be the point where I stop replying.

 

DC hit massas front left tire because Massas front left tire was BETWEEN DC's front and rear tires... you dispute this? You claim that Massa was further up on the track than DC? Well how do you explain the picture attached? DC went over Massas front wheel for the very reason that DC was in FRONT. Had DC been behind Massa then he would have went over the rear wheel. The very fact that DC's rear wheel went up and over Massas front is precisely how we know for sure that DC was in front.

As for DC being on a better line - you say "it does not mean Massa was not there first" - well considering Massa was BEHIND DC, how could he have been there first? Explain how that could have happened... the driver making the pass is the one that goes off line - thats why Massa was off line, he was making the pass on DC (or trying to) - are you suggesting DC was the one trying to pass Massa? You also said Massa was the one on the racing line, now you admit DC is the one who is on the racing line. What happened to the assertion that Massa is the one on the racing line?

I am not pissy at all - but to me it's one thing to be supportive of your favorite driver but quite another to be so blind to reality as to suggest it was DC trying to pass Massa and not the other way around. You may as well argue that it wasn't really DC and rather was Webber or something - because the absolute proof is so clear as day for everyone to see. Its like if it's raining outside and we're both standing there getting wet, and I say "we should go in - it's raining hard". And you say "no it's not". I look at you, puzzled, hold out my hand and show you the rain bouncing off it and say "look, it's RAINING". You look me square in the eye and say "no, it's not!". LOL

Again, it's OK to support Massa but you just have to say you feel he was only making a racing move and DC shut the door on him - no need for these ridiculous justifications like saying he was on the racing line and he was out in front and DC hit him from behind and such - it's just silly.
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Inside line does not equal having the corner. If you're on the inside you better be in front else it's not your turn. Massa wasn't ni front, he didn't have the turn, but he clumsily pushed his way in and caused an accident

9 times out of 10 that would result in Massa being out of the race - Massa got very lucky - too bad he ended DC's race for his clumsy brute force approach. The other 9 out of 10 times when he crashes out he'll "get it"

Yes I would say the same thing - just as I said that Kimi made a mistake on that one. It's some of you guys who are trying to argue that it wasn't a mistake. Using your own logic, why is it a mistake for Kimi but it's just a good race technique for Massa?

Kimi has talent to fall back on - Massa does not. Kimi is often running up front, making passes, taking the fight to the opponent. Massa is not. Thats why:

1) Kimi makes a huge salary and Massa does not
2) Kimi is the #1 driver and Massa is not
3) Kimi has always dominated every team mate he ever had, Massa has always been dominated BY every teammate he ever had
4) Kimi could quit Ferrari and go to ANY team on the grid tomorrow, Massa could probably luck out and get a drive with Force India or Super Aguri if he's LUCKY

 

For the fourth time:

Martin Brundle, ex formula 1 driver and Michael Schumachers teammate and manager of David Coulthard awknowledged it was Massa's corner.

Don't say there is absolute proof when the exact same proof you are referring to is obviously up for discussion and some insiders do not agree with your assesement. It is just stupid to claim the 'absolute proof is so clear as day for everyone to see'. Perhaps for you and your anti-Massa sentiments, but a lot of people in the know even one who we can count as being in DC's corner, have assessed the proof otherwise. So there you go with your 'clear proof'.

 

I still can't figure out why Kimi did not Pit while under yellow? Who in Gods name is running the Ferrari Pits/ Maybe a Ouija Board is being used. It was a total loss. And the next race is 1 week away. Maybe they need a visit from the Pope.

 

So they did an equally good job and Massa is just as good as Kimi right?

Hmmm..

Kimi started WAY back, but ran further up field than Massa for almost all the race

Kimi scored points, Massa did not

Kimi didn't crash into anyone

Kimi did make a bonehead move on Heiki but at least it was going for a position - Massa spins out when not even trying to make a pass right in the first turn

Kimi has a WDC, Massa does not and never will.


Face it, Ron, Massa sucks. The notion that he "carried" the team last year is laughable. Kimi took a while to get the hang of the car - for the start of the season Massa was almost his equal. When Kimi got the hang of the car, he demolished Massa. Massa is the equal of guys like Nakajima, Sato, Barrichello, or Davidson, not even in the same league as guys like Hamilton and Raikkonen and Alonso. Thats why Hamilton "tricked" him into spinning out last year - remember? It was so obvious and Hamilton even said that's what he did. When it was clear he had embarassed the untalented Massa with his comment he retracted his statement and gave Massa more credit (since he had made him look an utter fool before the world). It's pretty sad when a rookie driver is playing you like a fiddle on the track and there ain't nuttin you can do about it.

 

Clearly from those pics:

1) Massa was NEVER in front of DC

2) DC was on the racing line, Massa was not

Check the pic above - the view from Massas car - he's OFF the racing line - he kamikaze'd his way into the turn and DC paid the price.

 

What the photo sequence clearly shows is Massa's intentions to pull off the pass while coming down the straight. Everyone on the planet could clearly see that, including DC. Massa made it well known before the corner what his intentions were and DC knew it. Massa is also clearly in a faster car, yet DC refuses to yield. Again, I have no dog in this fight. The last pic provided in this thread is clearly after the impact and proves very little. I Tvo'd this incident several times again this morning and my opinion remains the same as previously stated. Both the guys are Jacks in my opinion.

 

Martin Brundle says your wrong.
The absence of Red Bull protests lodged at the stewards office says your wrong.

uh...well....Massa was succesful and Kimi was not. If Kimi was somehow succesfull in taking the corner and getting ahead, no one would call it a mistake.

But these instances aren't really comparable, and even if the were, they show how Massa acted correct and Kimi did. Massa braked on time and got a clean turn in. Kimi braked so late he did not only NOT get a clean turn in, he didn't get a turn AT ALL.

See the difference?

Yea, Massa was totally dominated by ex-world champ Villeneuve and Kimi totally dominated Nick Heidfeld. Sure...

So when you don't have facts you ressort to speculation? Great argument...at kindergarden.

 

You're the guy saying Massa was IN FRONT of DC. Find a single picture or video showing Massa in front - not "just behind a little bit", but in FRONT - doesn't exist because he was never in front. Massa was off line, tried to push DC out of the way, but he wasn't far enough up for it to be his corner and DC didn't give up as easily as Massa hoped.

 

I wondered about that as well. Especially since Kimi looked like he meant to pit but had to duck out the pitentrance again since it was just being closed for refuelling. According to Domenicalli they felt they had a better chance of picking up positions when he stayed out, but I do not really understand how that wouldve worked out.

 

Massa put his car along side DC's and to the inside going into the turn which would require DC to change lines or crash....he chose to crash. Had he chosen to go wide he would have existed with more speed than Massa (which is why he was able gain 1/2 car on Massa by the apex), regained the position and still been in the race. DC made a bad choice and took himself out of the race. At that point Massa couldn't have moved or slowed upeven if wanted to (there is no traction on the grass).....the time for DC to close the door had already come and gone. I don't see how the crash can be blamed on Massa honestly, he did nothing wrong.

 

I never said Massa was in front of DC, I said Massa had the corner. Of course Massa wasn't in front in the run to the corner, since that would mean the actual overtaking needs to be done before you even reach the corner. That is a ridiculous statement. The question is who got the best run to the apex and the pictures clearly show that Massa's car was enough down the inside of DC's Redbull, for DC to admit defeat.

But don't take my word for it, talk to Martin Brundle. He'll explain far better than me.

 

You can't refuel (repairs yes, fuel no) under a safety car any more until after the pack is collected and the marshal radios the pits are open. Kimi probably saw the SC and was diving in when the team rightly told him no.

 

correct, but soon after others came in during the SC-sequence (Alonso, Kubica) Kimi stayed out, allthough it was clear he was in his pit-window. I didn't get that.

 

+1 don't worry you're not the only one

it was stupid not to make him enter the pits in that momment.

what was the point in trying to pass Kovalainen? knowing that Kimi would have to pit 1 or 2 laps later...

 

I can only share the comments made by Luca di Montezemolo:

I hope we see the real Ferrari team in Malaysia...

 

Kimi needed fuel. Pitlane would have been closed for refuelling and they would have incurred a Barrichello-esque 10 sec penalty for it. Not to mention who knows if the damn red lights were on at the end of pitlane. I swear to god, its like safety car sessions are part of a mini-golf course. Apparently that's where the rules have come from. Its the last hole, completely random, sometimes you get lucky and other times the clown eats your ball for no reason...

 

I'am talking about Massa in general, as Mike keeps pointing out.. He wasn't in front at any time poor race craft on DC's part laughable, he didn't even close the door it was never open.

Had DC not been on that corner the line Massa was taking was wrong for the speed he was going, he would have ended up in the gravel like kimi did.

Although Kimi did the same thing credit to him as he managed to keep the car going as he had a go at HK on the outside!!

And just to get this straight for those that think you can crash a F1 car into another without damaging there own ask yourself why Massa's car packed in later in the race..NOW if that was the case it was a gamble that didnt pay off..

Can I remind the same the folk who think it was DC's fault , Genitalia: is NOT an Italian airline.

On the whole apart from Ferrari having a bad outing the racing was brillant, and if this is the result of TC going bring it on it, turned a boring no overtaking track into one that shows who the good drivers really are!! in proper racing IMO.

 

...so far IMHO

Kimmi: 0
Massa: 0
Ferrari Team: 0

A race to forget.

...lets move onto Malasya and wipe away all this...we need an extraordinary race this fri-sat-sun.

no reason to give any of both a thumbs up...

not even the team back int he factory performed well...

They´ll never accept it but all failures were due to FAULTY FUEL PUMPS...the engine noise gave away any doubts...sputtering and while trying to go and then stalling is RUNNING OUT OF FUEL...

we´ve had that before, Last year we had BOTH cars failing on faulty alternators, BOTH CARS with rear shocks blowing out (separated by one race)...and now faulty gas pumps.

...all speculation but the engines seemed to die while going ok...many think is hydraulic cause drivers work the paddles and nothing happens, but that is to try and put it in first/second gear before it stops and trying to re-start them...

anybody has ANY ACCURATE INSIDE INFO about the engines failing?...THAT is keeping me mad till today.

 

Yeah and Kimi only got that point because RB was DQ'd.

 

Obviouisly there are a lot more "race watchers" out here than there are real experienced "race drivers",

Masa got inside of DC far enough to "claim" the corner.

You don't have to be in front to have the inside line and make the corner yours, you just have to be forward enough that the outside driver can see you there and understand that his turning in can't be done without hitting you. Masa was easily that far up along side of DC, if DC really cared to look. Masa's wheel was almost beside DC's cockpit, and his front wing was up near DC's front wheel.... Plenty far forward to be seen....The overtaking driver isn't going to be "on line" and both are going to have to slow down a whole lot to make the corner. So all of these posts about Masa being "off line" are stupid, to make a pass often you are going to be off line and both cars are going to be slowed down. Now I know that these cars are pretty "blind", but that's not an excuse. DC knew that Masa was going to try to make the pass, and he turned in anyway. Masa was there and DC hit him. It's that simple.

That's why Brundle and the other folks on DC's team aren't complaining. DC should have given up the corner but he screwed up and ended up out of the race.

There is a higher authority some times....

 

+1