Before waxing the 348 Ferrari...."Paint Restoration Project"

Nice!

 

Looks great, well done. Was that 1200 wet sandpaper you used?

 

Tht looks hot

I wish we had decent detailers in town instead of the Goonies...

 

In the picture with the flash of the camera, compounding swirls are still very visible.

Also, 99 percent of the swirls come from poor washing and drying techniques, not buffing. (Poor buffing techniques are commonly hidden by detailers who tell you to keep a good wax on it).

The looks very glossy, but still appears to have swirl marks (in the flash of the camera).

Correct washing techniques (not dragging dirt across the surface) will reduce swirl marks. Wax has nothing to do with them (if your detailer tells you to keep a good way on it to prevent swirl marks, then they did not buff the paint properly, but instead used an oil based glaze to hide the imperfections in the paint. The wax is used to "seal" in the oils, and prevent the paint from showing the marring that is still visible). After polishing my clients cars, I routinetly wipe the paint with a solvent to remove any oils that could hide the defects, and inspect the paint with a 100x's maginfying glass under halogen light to inspect for an buffer trails.

I also will spend upwards of 2 hours discussing proper washing techniques so that we can reduce the chance of swirl marks reappearing in the paint.

 

I should add that I did not add my last post to discredit your detailer in the least, or say that he doesn't know what he is talking about. Minus the buffer trails in the flash, the car looks very nice. I am sure that those trails where removed (do you have a picture of the car in direct sunlight?).

But to stay that keeping the car swirl free just requires wax and a couple good microfibers is really simplfing the process and incorrect. Incorrect buffing will induce damage into the paint tha appears to be swirl marks, called buffer trails or holograms. This is normal, and a result of the damage inflicted by an abbrasive meduim spinning across the paint in a pattern. Most detailers "hide" these holograms with a glaze and wax. Very few detailers take the time to actually remove (and in classes I have held to train detailers and bodyshops, most don't even know that you can remove them). If the paint is truely perfect, then wax has nothing to do with weather or not you will see the swirl marks. If they are gone, they are gone.

However, most swirl marks are the result of damage inflicted to the paint during the washing and drying processes. They are not truely "swirls" as they are thousands of microscopic, straight line scratches. The reason they appear circular is because of the way the light radiates from a central source to the edge of the scratch. As you move the light source aroudn the car, the swirls appear to move with the light source.

Wetsanding is an aggressive technique, but can actually be safer then buffing along on cars with deep scratches and marring. This is because you are only removing the high spots of the scratch (vs. compounding the paint with a machine, which can actually chase scratches deeper into the paint). Also, wetsanding with a block can reduce or remove orange peel, which flattens the paint and sharpens the reflections in the paint.

 

TropicalDetail


What method would you reccomend for washing the cars, to prevent the swirl marks?

 

The buffing needs to be followed with foam pads in different grades of aggressiveness and at various speeds. Lastly a good going over with either a porter cable or a 20lb. orbital buffer.

I'm sure the detailer did this but the picture just shows the car in it's improved but unfinished state.

I do this to all my cars and did it to my Ferrari the first day i got it home. I haven't washed it once but use a form of drywash and haven't seen any marring even under a 500watt halogen. It's all about treading lightly and spraying alot of product as well as using a microfiber that's been gone over with a fine tooth comb for any debris before using.

The concern i'd have on a Ferrari is that wetsanding makes the paint perfect and the orange peel hides alot of factory metal imperfections especially on vintage cars. Every imperfection in the metal is amplified so take that into account. Remember you can only take out orange peel you can't put it back.

A hose on a Ferrari is more damaging than a slight marring from washing and even at that drywashing if done right treats the surface with kid gloves better than soap and water IMO.

My $.02

 

Todd instructed me to use two buckets with little grates in the bottom to prevent the wash mitt / cloth from picking up dirt that should be allowed to settle in the bottom of the bucket. One bucket is clean water to rinse the wash mitt, and one bucket is soapy water to dip the mitt before each section is washed. Also, use microfiber or other similar non-scratching mitts for washing. Wash in a single direction (not in circles). Use a hose without a nozzle for the final rinse to allow the water to sheet off instead of beading up the spray. Dry in one direction only (I think they recommend micro fiber drying towels), but I use the 'absorber' synthetic chamois. All microfiber rags and towels should have their binding edges trimmed off to remove the nylon thread that will scratch the paint. I did this when waxing my 348 recently and it came out great!

BT
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Water (when mixed in a solution) with soap provides the lubrication necessary to safely float dirt off the surface of the car. While I agree with most of your post, I feel dry washing is a terrible idea. Mild automotive soap acts to break the surface tension of water, which increased the waters lubricity, and many modern soaps are fortified with wax or polymers that reinforce the protection already on the paints surface.

Why do you feel soap is bad for the paint's surface?

 

Sounds nutz to me. I tend to use Murphy's Oil Soap on DESHIZNT. A good safe soap and it smells good!

 

I always enjoy reading these threads about detailing. I would like to ask a question to the group, that I've always wondered about. I read about removing those fine scratches in the paint. I have always been under the impression that you can never "totally" remove the scratches, all you can do is make smaller ones out of bigger ones. To remove paint, there must be some abrasive, no matter how fine. And it seems to me that anything that can "polish" must be making fine scratches at some level.

So is it truly possible to remove ALL fine scratches and swirl marks from paint?

 

I believe, and Todd can correct me if I wrong, that you can infact remove them depending on the depth. If it is down to the primer then you are out of luck. I would wager that to the naked eye, and in case where Todd uses a 100x magnifing glass that they essentially are removed from vision. But if you took that view down to 1000x you would be able to see a difference in paint thickness.

 

Yes and no.... Mike was on the right course with his posts.

It is possible to remove scratches under a 100x magnifying glass (at which point to our eyes it is beyond perfect). The more perfect the paint is at the microscopic level, the more total light will reflect and the sharper the reflections will appear in the paint. (Instead of refracting or become diffused). At some point though, you will be able to zoom in enough that you will find that surface of the paint is never truly perfect (I would wager around 1000x's zoom).

You are correct in a sense that you are "replacing" bigger scratches with small ones, but there is one variable. Modern polishes use a diminishing abrasive. That is as the polish is worked with friction between the pad and paint, the abrasives act to become finer and finer. So, thru tumbling, abrasion, and friction the abrasives that started off at 4000 grit level are worked down to near 10000 grit or higher. However, part of the "art" of polishing is using the correct pad and power (RPM in the case of a rotary buffer) matched to the correct hardness of the paint, to ensure the abrasives do not break down too fast or slow.

If the abrasives break down too quickly, they don't have enough "cut" to remove the scratches they just instilled. If they break down too slow, you remove unnecessary paint. However, by hitting the sweet spot, it is possible to finish the paint down to perfection (again at 100x's magnification) with no evidence of polishing or micro scratches.

 

Not the soap. I know that sounded misleading. It's the water.

I basically use the dry wash as water and soap and wash the car with it.

It's the water that gets into the engine compartment and in the seams of the body panels that i'm avoiding.

Some old Ferrari's don't even have drainage in the doors. Combine that with old finicky italian electronics and i have concerns about using a hose on a Ferrari. The drywash has more lubricity than water and cleaners stronger than those in soap. The key is to spray alot and let it drip then gently wipe the car and let the dirt get dissolved and softened by the cleaners. Follow with a light wipe then a second towel to buff out. I know it sounds like you'd scratch the car but i've done this for years and have checked the paint with lights and have yet to find any marring.

Those of you that aren't afraid of using a hose on your car i'm not trying to talk you out of it just giving you an alternative. Beyond that the ocean at my house is a quarter mile on one side and the intracoastal a mile on the other so what i put in the storm drain is a concern.

As far as a microfiber mit goes i doubt you could ever get all the little pieces of grit out of one of those unless it's just a microfiber towel with a little elastic strap on it. It's hard enough to pic all the little bits of debris that find their way into the microfiber towels.

If i was to use soap i know it's a can of worms opening idea but dishwash soap really cleans the car in a way no car wash soap or wash and wax soap ever does. Walk to your mailbox and look back at your car in the sun and something about the way dish soap cleans gives the surface a pop that i can only get by hitting a car with mist and wipe and then buffing with a microfiber and even at that i think the car looks better just from using dish soap (dawn or joy etc.) Despite the consensus that dish soap strips wax i've not found that to be the case.

 

Cool thread! Thanks for the tips, gentlemen!

 

Hey Todd, how's it going, looking forward seeing you next week...

What about silver-colored vehicles? Is the paint treatment the same...?

Just curious.

 

The detergents in dish soap that are traditionally for breaking down grease and other oils on dishes do tend to strip away wax on clearcoats. Even if they don't completely remove the wax, those detergents help to break the bond that waxes and other sealants have against the paint on the car.

Modern car wash soaps are designed to be able to help remove petroleum based contaminants like oil and tar without disturbing the bond between whatever is sealing the paint, and the paint itself.

And to answer the question above me, the process is indeed the same on a silver car. The individual steps may differ simply due to the variances in visibility in the paint surface from silver to darker colors like red or black, but the general process is exactly the same.

Todd made a great point that education is key. A detailers job should not be limited to working on the car, it should also branch to working on the customer. It is much more of a testament to the quality of his work if he can instruct a client on how to properly preserve the finished achieved through his work.

 

In terms of protection, yes the paint treatment is the same. But it’s another one of those questions that I could right a book on. With out getting wordy (I hope!! )

Dark colors will be less forgiving of imperfect prep. Because black (and other dark colors) reflect more light, they will tend to magnify any defects and show degradation faster.

When 100 percent perfection is the goal (at the microscopic level, remember perfectly flat paint reflects the most) then both cars will require the same amount of work (or time) but the improvement will appear less dramatic. While black might show a 20 percent improvement, silver would require the same time to show 10 percent (I am making these numbers up).

Also, in terms of which wax or sealant to use, keep in mind that each color has different optical properties. On darker cars, many people like to use a wax which distorts the reflection (creating the illusion of depth) since the paint is naturally glossy. On a lighter car, brighter waxes and sealants tend to increase the gloss which helps the cars to reflect.

I have included some pictures of car's I have worked on to illustrate my points.


First picture: This 360 Spider belongs to a client of mine who demands perfection. Even though it is silver, he wanted the car to looks it best. Over 15 hours when into polishing the paint level and burnishing like jewel. To make silver shine and reflect like this, it has to be perfect.

Second picture: Another view of the 360 Spider. Also, you can see the TDF blue 456 which has been perfected as well. Darker color's will always have greater reflection, but even seeing it doesn't degrade the 360. Actually this 360 is one of my favorite cars I have ever detailed, because it is so rare to see silver perfect. But when it is, the results, IMO, are stunning.

Third picture: 456 in TDF Blue perfected.

Fourth picture: When red is perfect it takes it on a new look, almost a glossy brilliance.

Fifth picture: Red 360.

Sixth picture: Red 365 we did for Cavallino.

Seventh picture: Black QPorte. Nothing will look as reflective as black when perfect!

Eighth picture: Hood polished to perfection

Nineth picture-tenth picture: Black F430 to perfection

Eleventh picture: But that doesn't mean silver can't be perfected, in its own special.
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Last two pictures...
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Absolutely stunning Todd. The quality of the work truly shines through, especially on the Silver 360.

 

Beautiful.

 

Proper washing techniques for modern scratch sensitive clear coats...

Products Needed

-2 five gallon buckets, each with a Grit Guard ™ in the bottom (gritguard.com I think)

-high quality car soap (my favorites include Meguiars' NXT or Gold Glass, Mothers California Gold, Zaino Z7, Turtle Wax Platinum.)

-high quality sheep skin wash mitt (the Eurow brand from Wal-Mart of all places are some of the best on the market)

-several low quality or old wash mitts

-a mild wheel cleaner (Eagle One makes a nice tire/rim cleaner that is very mild and works well, P21's Wheel Gel is the best on the market)

-assorted brushes (I like using an old paint brush, with the bristles cut to about 2 inches in length for rims)

-210 mph leaf blower

-high quality waffle weave micro fiber towel

Process

Fill one five gallon bucket to the brim with clean, pure water and the other five gallon bucket with the mixed solution of soap and water. A good tip is to fill the soapy bucket with half of water first, add the soap, and then fill the rest of the way. This helps prevents the suds from spilling out of the bucket before you get it full of water. Also, make sure you follow the manufacture’s directions, regarding the ratio of soap/water. A common mistake is to add way too much soap, which makes the soap difficult to rinse away with out leaving a film behind. High quality car soap is pH neutral and will not act to strip wax or sealants. (However, cheaper waxes as sealants can be re-agitated by the actual wiping motion and loose their “foundation” which can lessen durability.)

Another idea to use would be to clean the wheels, tires, wheel wheels and under-body first. Since these areas are time consuming, if you where to do the body first, the rinse water could try on the car’s paint and cause water spots. Spray each wheel with a gentle wheel cleaner, let sit for 30 seconds, then use a brush or cut paint brush to mildly agitate the cleaner. Then rinse the wheel completely clean. Do each wheel individually. If you are aiming to clean the tires also, you can use a product like Eagle One tire and wheel cleaner which does a great job of cleaning the tire as well as the rim. You can also you an all purpose cleaner.

An alternate method is to clean the wheels using a separate bucket with soapy water and a brush and old mitt. If you have applied a sealant to your rims previously, even the most gentle wheel cleaners will remove the protection. Go around and clean the rims with the soapy water (if there is sealant on the rim, the brake grim will clean off very easily anyways) and rinse clean. It is also a good time to clean the underside of the body and wheel well lips (inside the fenders).

Now evaluate the surface. Is there a lot of tar or bugs? If there is, then they will have to be removed before washing the car. If your mitt picks up bug remains or tar gunk, the residue will be dragged across the paint, which is how swirls and marring is introduced into the paint. A good product is Stoner's Tarminatior. Spray on bug remains and any road tar and let sit for a minute. Use a terry cloth to blot and pick the remains off the paint (don't wipe back and forth as will mar the paint). After the major grime has been pulled from the surface, vs. wiped on it, we start our rinse.

Spend a good deal of time rinsing the all the areas of the car. Try to remove as much dirt and grime as possible to reduce the risk of marring later. The goal is to safely float dirt of the paint surface instead of grinding it into the paint’s surface (and risking the abrasion that reduces the gloss of the paint and increase the chance for visible damage such as swirl marks).

Once the vehicle is rinsed and tar and dangerous grime is removed it is time to start washing. Start with the roof and work your way down using as much water/soap solution as you can get on the surface. The goal here is to literally flood the surface with soapy solution to float away the dirty. Use a lot of solution, frequently dunking the mitt in solution. Wipe the mitt in a back and forth direction, working the length of the paint. Flip the mitt often to reduce the chance of the mitt picking up dirt and scratching your paint.

After cleaning a section, it’s time to rinse the mitt out, again to remove any dirty that is getting into the fibers of the paint. This is where the second bucket comes in. Dunk the mitt in the bucket and swish it around (if you have a grit guard, gently rub the mitt over the grates of the grit guard) then squeeze out the water before dunking back into the soapy solution. Keep the mitt clean and you greatly reduce the swirling in your scratch sensitive clear coat. At the end of the wash, the once clean water (rinse bucket) should be dirty and filthy, where as the soap-water bucket’s water should still be clean.

You never want to re-introduce dirty back on to the car, hence using the second bucket to rinse out the mitt.

Another question is how much you can clean before you rinse that section. If you mixed the solution properly, you can cover a lot of ground before having to rinse. However it’s best to err on the side of caution, as you don't want the water drying on the car and leaving soap scum on the surface. Also, the weather affects this time as well. If you have to wash the car outside, you have to contend with other factors. On a cloudy, mild day you can cover a lot of ground. If you have the unfortunate luck of washing in the sun, then you have to rinse frequently to keep the water from drying up and to keep the surface cool. Use good judgment, and if you are unsure, rinse the soap off frequently.

I like to wash down to the dirt line of the car, and what I mean by this is every car as a beltline that collects more road grime and dirt. If you where to wash from the bottom up, you would risk dragging the dirt over the paint and increase the chances of swirling. Once you get the top of the half of the car washed (down to the dirt belt line), either switch to another mitt or use the same mitt but rinse frequently in the clean water bucket) to clean the dirtier areas. Then rinse clean.

Now it’s time for the final rinse before drying. A good tip is to remove the nozzle from the hose and kink the hose to cut the water pressure down to a gentle stream. Water has a natural viscosity and is attracted to water. Use this to your advantage and gently stream the water over the paint starting high and working low. The sheeting water will pull most of the other water with it, sheeting the surface almost dry! You can remove as much as 75 percent of the water on the surface using this method.

Keep in mind that a lot of damage to the paint is done in the drying process. You have no removed the only protective barrier between your paint and your towel (the lubricated soap/water solution.) So we have to remove the water safely, with out “touching” the paint too much.

I like to use a high speed leaf blower to blow as much water off the surface and crevices where water hides. Start from the top down, blowing as much water as you can off. The goal here is reduce the amount of wiping you do with your towel. You guessed it, any time you wipe anything against your car, you increase the risk of marring (it’s getting old, me repeating that, huh?). Once you removed the majority of water, you can go over your car with a waffle weave micro fiber to absorb the removing water.

I prefer using a micro fiber waffle weave style towel for water absorption because of the “nap” of the fibers. With products such as the absorber or a natural chamois (which both dry the paint very nicely) you do not have a nap or barrier between the backing of the towel and the paint. If any dust has landed on the paint, a non-nap towel will grind the dirt against and into the paint’s surface.

A good trick is to blot the paint try rather then wiping across it. Despite our best efforts, we may still have some water that has dried on the surface and left water spots. Give your towel a mist of quick detailer spray to lube it up and to clean any water marks that may have formed. Once the car is dry, clean your windows, dress your tires, fire up the motor, and go enjoy it!

 

Wow!
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