Timing Belt Failure After Only 150mi!! WTF!?!?

It does look "sheared" by a round object (stray washer perhaps?).

 

I disagree with the statement: "The fact is you really don't (and likely can never) know, with complete certainty, what happened with these belts." Perhaps not 100% certainty, but you can get into the high 90s and that's good enough for judge and jury. I'm no mechanic or forensic engineer, but if you can get this analyzed, I am sure that they can tell you whether the break was a failure of the material or caused by a foreign object. I would think that an examination under high magnification could tell you much--if you don't play with the belt too much between now and then.

For example, under higher magnification, are the fibers bent and at right angles at the point of the brake? If so, it might indicate a foreign object. If they are straight, then it might be a materials failure. To me, it matters little whether an engine block was sitting on it at the dealer or not as the fault would have occurred prior to getting into the consumer's hands.

This kind of thing are what engineers are for, so I humbly suggest getting it analyzed.

Andrew

 

Ditto.


-Rjay

 

This is my uneducated guess, but IF a washer or other round object found it's way into the belt area, it looks like it landed on the outside of the belt based on the pictures. Like a washer went between the belt and the tensioner.

Andrew Bolton has the right idea though, find out if it was a tension break or a shear break. It could be a combination of both, with the "shear" event happening first and weakening the belt to the point of eventual tension failure.

I think it's safe to say that most of the fchat community is watching this thread to see how things develop, as this is a rare event that is often talked about without substantiation. Adaptel....please keep us informed...

 

Looking at the photos it looks like a belt flaw of some sort, it broke so clean at the origination and went into a ripping mode.
Did you check the bearings for any marks?

 

yep, I'd agree with this one. the failure looks like the inner cords were broken most likely from being bent before installation and the belt broke under load and heat cycling.

 

I would be really ticked off no doubt about that.

Best Regards,

Thomas Carey

 

And what about the other point the guys raised of inspecting the sprockets for contact with a hard object coming between one of the sprockets and belt? No marks/dents/scars?

 

Defective Chinese counterfiet belt, perhaps? Seriously...

 

had a small cut at the root of the "tooth" eventually broke, bad deal, I feel your pain!

 

I think we are all dancing around the question, and major point the OP is trying to make. The only question is, "Who is going to pay for this?"

And I suspect, the answer is, "The car's owner."

If this happened to me, I would be sick, angry, and panicked... This is a huge repair bill.

Now, could the belt have been bad? Certainly. Can you PROVE, more likely than not, that the belt caused this??? Probably not.

Your only chance of proving it, realistically, is:

1) The belt is a fake - easy to ducument
2) The belt is really old (by date code)

All of this other talk about having the belt analysed, talk of engineering evaluation, etc...is likely beyond the price scope of the damage.

There are tons of things that could have caused the belts to fail. Could something internal in the motor have given way? Possibly.

Foreign body? Possibly.

Installation error? Possibly.

You installed the belts yourself, which shifts a lot of the responsibility onto you. If you had a dealer do it, you would have a much stronger position. I do much of my own work too, and am not trying to imply anything negative. But the simple fact is, you now have no one to fall back onto.

If you try to argue with DAYCO that it was a belt problem, they will argue that you have to prove that. Which likely requires a ferrari mechanic going through your motor to prove it wasn't some other problem ($$$$).

I totally sympathize. But I suspect you won't get far with pursuing the belt company or parts seller...

My deepest sympathies...

 

hate to say it - - but you may wish to first get an attorney involved. if the belt failure is ultimately dayco's to correct, you'll want the groundwork properly laid such that they are also liable for the failure analysis cost as well.

a demand letter to dayco may be the first step. an atty can help.

you have a tough choice to make:
Option 1: pay a shop to complete the repair and quantify the damage & then fight dayco
gain - - a fixed car, potentially no out of pocket expense
loss - - risk of paying for the full cost of repair/ attorney and failure analysis. all with lots of aggrevation and much of your time. your car may be tied up for many months.
Option 2: do the work yourself and blow off the legal hassle
gain - - a fixed car
loss - - minimal, but significant out of pocket expense & your time

Since this was DIY - - it will be **extremely** hard to prove that your actions did not contribute to the failure. If this were a shop, the insurance companies would likely figure out a split. gain under option 1 may be a low probability.

Any chance your homeowner or comp policy might kick in????? might be worth a call to your agent.

if you go straight to failure analysis;
be sure to ask if they want the gears for inspection as well. any base left uncovered will be exploited by dayco.

sorry there are no 'good' decisions to be made.

Good luck,
Vince

 

Maybe either CSI Miami or CSI Las Vegas can analyze the cause of the breakage.

 

Break looks strange to me. The break tore across a tooth, not once but twice. You would think that the tooth would be the strongest and thickest part of the belt. Path of least resistance would be along the edge of the tooth not across it. Sorry to hear of your misfortune. Hope that once you get it apart the damage is relatively easily fixed.

 

What was the value of the Staeger gauge? How far from the drive cog did you check the set tension with the Staeger gauge? There is a Ferrari service bulletin specifically addressing belt tension and how to do it. It's important to use the correct tools and use them correctly to avoid problems. Ferrari had problems with the mechanics setting it wrong with a belt failure as the result.

If you didn't use a Staeger gauge to check the tension, my guess is you'll receive the one finger salute in trying to get anyone (DAYCO, Ferrari & Ron Tonkin) to step up.

This is one reason to let a dealer/shop do the engine rebuild. If this happened, they would be eating the cost to fix it. It is also why most smart shops pay the extra money for the belt tensioners and belts that come from Ferrari and say Ferrari on the belt. If something goes wrong, they have some recourse.

Steve

 

All that got updated by the factory for exactly this reason. It's too easy to get the tension wrong and a catastrophic failure is the result. All mechanics I know use Staeger gauges. If they don't, they don't work on my engines. Most tend to set them slightly on the low side just to make sure they don't fail. For 348s, you have to check the tension in two locations. You always replace the tensioner bearings when changing belts. If for no other reason, call it piece of mind. I've probably had 25 to 30 belt changes over the years in various 512TRs, F40s, GTOs, Boxers and various flavors of 308s, including a QV, I've owned. So far, no problems. Of course, this probably means I'll take my GTO out tomorrow and I'll eat a belt...... But, if I do, I have recourse.

Steve

 

does anybody out there in Fcar land use a Staeger gauge? Don't tell me about a dealer that wants to sell you their 'expertice'.....

Anybody out there actually use one? if so, do you see a significant difference from the gauge to the preset tensioner setting?

Rgds,
Vince

 

I think that you made the right choice sending it out to be examined. One has written about the cost. Yes, an expert can be costly, but not so much to just have the belt examined and a short one-page report given back to you (pleeease ask for the belt back with the report). That report--making assumptions here--may be a good basis for filing a claim.

When I use experts, there are a plethora of experts under every category under the sun. Simply google "accident reconstruction expert" and your local large city and you should get some hits.

Andrew

p.s. don't let them give you the "limited warranty" hoey either. First, I doubt a listed warranty ever came with your belt (mail order, right?). Second, a failure after only 150 miles may violate our state's deceptive trade practices act (or similar law).

 

Any Porsche guys out there?
The 944 came out in 1983-this was a Category "A" Tool....
Porsche Cars North America sends it and bills/invoices the franchise at the next cycle-automatically...
you do not have a choice, as the tool is a REQUIRED component of the service.

As a line tech, if you want to get dispatched the services on such cars, you pay the 900-1200.00 for the tool. Period.

I cannot speak as to the policies of BMWNA.
MBNA did not have this issue as they NEVER used belts-EVER.

Ferrari used toothed cog cam timing belts beginning with the 308GT/4 DINO, and the 365GT/4BB...late 1974?
Correct me if I'm in error, please.

This design was used up to the 348. The subsequent 8 cylinder cars utilized a similar design. The "modern 12s" as well, employ this belt design.
Nearly impossible to jump time due to the length of the actual teeth-it seems...an OPINION ONLY...
the 'earlier' design was a decidedly flatter tooth...it was MUCH shallower.

However, it was used on the F-40.
It was during this era when I remember, through the fog of time, the first service bulletins regarding the utilization of the Staeger Guage... along with Factory tension settings for an array of applications.
There have been, as I recall, several updates, addendums, or whatevers on the topic, along with assorted values-updated or otherwise.
They are hardly a secret....
ANY professiuonal Technician who is a Ferrari practitioner, will have this tool.
If NOT, run as fast as you can until you find one!
* Vicenzo-yes, the "used values" are lower than installed new...otherwise it would be a hoax-NO? *
It is worthy of note that: prior to Ferrari's adaptation/integration of this tool, they employed their time honored useage of pulleys and degree wheels-real stone age stuff, but true....and it worked-UNTIL this tool was invented and its use was "normalized" within the work force. (see disc brakes and mid-engines)
It is NOT outrageous to expect a practitioner to accquire such a tool which directly affects his earnings so intrinsically.
WITH OUT IT, YOU CANNOT DO THE JOB PROPERLY.

PERIOD.

I have lent the tool to a couple of very trusted "back yarders," but not without the 750.00 cash deposit(current cost of tool-they ARE do it yourselfers after all)...point being that they had obtained all requisite information and equipment pertinent to a proper and skilfull execution of the job.

It is painful, but in the end, there will be no magical fault found in the materials....just like plane crashes, after FAA accident reconstruction concludes-the findings are NEARLY ALWAYS the same: PILOT error.

I would bet on the same being true in this instance-as much as you may not LIKE to hear this:
it was a workmanship defect, there will not likely-and this is with nearly 35 years in the game-be a "phony" belt, or an out of date part, or a washer in the fan blades. Some where, some how, an error was made...
It is has served me well to always remeber that: "the only stupid question, was the one which I DIDN'T ask....."

In my experience, merely "reading the book" is frequently inadequate.
Mere confidence in one's abilities as a "mechanic" will not supercede EXPERIENCE as a professional Technical Support man.

Save your time and money for repairing your car-you have ZERO legal footing-you are under trained, and ill equpped-legally speaking. You have admitted your own lack of knowledge and tooling-in public and in print I might point out...put this to bed.
These are corporations with flesh eating lawyers that will smear you on their panty liners.

Fix your car and learn from the experience. I sincerely hope that there is No bottom end damage.
Bad things sometimes happen to the best of people, unfortunately, this may be one of them.

You didn't "deserve" this-no one does...but sometimes,
s**t happens.

 

Yes Porsche has a tool for adjusting the timing belts on 944, 944turbo, S2, 968 cars. I think it is P201. And readjust the belt after 1000 miles. Most dealerships do not sell tools..

Good luck, I hope you have good results.

 

That's terrific news!! I'm glad for you!

Those pistons look serviceable --- might want to smooth the dings out a bit before you put it back together...

So, hopefully you're only looking at having to replace some valves in the one head --- heck even if you need to replace all (8) plus re-machining the seats, that's not too bad, considering...