Timing Belt Failure After Only 150mi!! WTF!?!?

Gotta hand it to you - you're FAST!!!!

Presumably still no sign of contributing mechanical factors?

Looks like you have some wind at your back after all.

Best Wishes,
Vince

 

This happened to your QV engine, right?

It's amazing there's no piston / valve contact on the intake side ----- strange (and lucky) that...

You may wish to run out and buy a lotto ticket while the good juju is still on your side!!

 

Thats fantastic new, great!!!!!

 

About the belt;
I would think that if the belt was stretched throughout its length then an over tightening situation would exist.
If there is none then a mechanical shearing at one point ( Washer ) may be the cause.
Or has the belt rotted or aged over time. Is there a "use by" date on these.

 

When I replaced my 328 belts 4.5 years ago, the replacements were from Orange County Ferrari and they did not say "Ferrari" on them. I think they just said "Dayco:. Yours say "Ferrari" and I'm wondering if they were old stock? You might be able to ask Dayco when they quit making belts that say "Ferrari" on them. If it is a while ago, perhaps you would have a case against the person who sold them to you?

Mark

 

Dear Ferraristi,

Wow, truly impressive information on this thread.

First, sorry to hear about this....all our fears realized !

Funny, all the belt failures I hear about is always just after they've been installed. Ok, no more belt changes for me.

Please let us know what the true failure was....really really interested.


Good luck, and get that back on that horse !!!


Shamile

Freeze...Miami Vice!

 

You often mention the past work plus this comment about another systems failure. My thinking is to wonder how things were not satisfactory in the previous builds, what exactly was the work carried out and by whom? Certainly looks like a 10mm washer o.d. to me, if a steel washer fell between the belt and lower pulley, I could certainly see this failure occuring.

 

That's a beautiful engine indeed! I can't imagine all that work and now
you have to do it all again (plus valves, pistons, head work, etc.) on
top of what you had to do in the first place.

Good luck to you in the rebuild. But based on how fast you had it out
and torn down (seems like it was the very next day), I'm sure you'll
have it all sorted out in very short order and be back in the fast lane.

Good luck to you.

Jedi

 

I would have to guess it is eaither a really old stock belt, or somehow a washer cut the belt. The workmanship is not the issue here kids.

BT

 

No offense but a spray can of red paint does not mean you cut corners or not. The fact remains something went terribly wrong, whats really unfortunate is you need to pay cookies, so an incorrect job was done...somewhere, somehow...or else the belt wouldnt have broken.....can you send the belts out to test to determine the cause or recourse ? If it was a shop, you would have had some recourse to get it done on their dime. Unfortuantley, its gonna cost you and your without a car for awhile. Im saddened and feel your pain my friend. Not a whitch hunt, just reality unfortunately. Im not trying to blame your workmanship, or the guy that did the engine either....but your in a bad spot against the manufacutrer now.....have you contacted them directly yet ?

 

HUH, where are you coming from? The 3x8 2V & 4V WSM belt tensioning procedure does NOT involve either pulleys or degree wheels. It depends on the spring constants of the tensioner springs. Which if the tensioners are cleaned & lubricated, is quite predictable. It does require the person setting the tension to detect when the tensioner is at maximum deflection (ie: has taken up the maximum amount of slack), but that's fairly easy to detect. It works when done carefully & properly. Adaptel had an experienced Ferrari technician coaching him thru this. So I'd expect it to have been done properly.

Also, I understand that Ferrari has gone away from the Staeger & adopted an electronic tuning fork tool that is much more accurate.

IIRC a post awhile ago where it was stated that the Porsche Staeger tensiometer & the Ferrari version were different, & settings for 1 could not be used for the other.

BTW, does anyone have a copy of SB 00-41? Allegedly that's the SB that introduced the Stager tensiometer.

 

I'm glad to see you step up with this. Timing belt tension isn't brain surgery and possession of a $69 gizmo (that's what the OTC version sells for) doesn't guarantee you won't do it wrong. I've priced the electronic instrument (about $800) but I'm not sure it's really necessary. There's a lot of "magic" in this business, some of it is just BS.

 

I wonder why the belt only "partially" broke, and not all the way across? Because it did NOT completely break across it's entire width does seem to point to "something" foreign having some significant influence on the situation. As I mentioned earlier, it does look like a round-disk-like object got between the belt and the tensioner bearing.

 

I agree, from what the relatively low resolution pic shows, & applying Occam's razor, a cut from a moderately thick foreign disc shaped object with somewhat sharp edges best fits the currently available evidence. Altho, I think I see a cut edge propagating backwards from the teeth, If so then the DOD (Disc Of Destruction) more likely got between the belt & the drive gear, . There's a lot more pressure & power available at that point. Say a DOD of about the size & thickness of a 19mm 4V cam shim???

Certainly can't rule out Kevin being the victim of a stray 3/4" washer being kicked up from the road at absolutely the wrong time & angle, thus ending up in there.

Kevin,
You've got my sympathies. I know exactly what it's like to take great pains rebuilding an engine & then have it go bad right away. Back in '68 my roommate & took weeks rebuilding my XK150's engine.

My roommate had access to molycote at his co-op job & talked me into painting the main caps with it to provide lubrication during break-in. Well, turns out there are 2 kinds of moly. One is oil based & would have worked fine. The other is lacquer based & sets up quite hard. Yup. burned out the new bearings & a couple of crank journals in the 1st 150 miles. Had to completely redo the bottom end.

All this paid for out of a co-op job's salary. I barely managed to scrape up the next semester's tuition after that fiasco. Thank goodness for little old ladies who kindly gave me their extra Gov't surplus butter, powdered eggs & milk, tinned beef, peanut butter & cornmeal or I'd have gone hungry many a time that semester.

Much as I hate removing & installing those $#@!%@$ rear belt covers, this convinces me that they're the lesser of 2 evils!!!!

 

I think that this is anything but a witchunt, merely people asking probing questions to help understand and help. I have no doubt that a foreign object was the cause from many years of experience ansd having seen failures on Fcars/Lotus/Lancia/porsche etc. from many causes and most of which could be explained.

 

i was actually eluding to the fact that the guy that did your engine also did a volvo engine for the same reason (as you mentioned)....coincidence.....maybe, but highly unlikely. I would start there first (me personally). Just because people rebuild engines doesnt mean they can undertake a ferrari or lambo engine. I have seen a many of these clowns try and do that....the whole lot of them should be hit with a stick....and shouldnt be near these cars.

 

Come on, why are you trying to cause so much grief for this guy? The 308 has the simplest and crudest timing belt drive and tensioner on the planet. Its simular to the old Fiat 128/ Yugo belt. Oh wait, IT IS a Fiat belt. After working on something far more complex, like say for example a 1977 Honda or VW Rabbit, you have to "dumb yourself down" to work on the 308. This stuff is only rocket science for guys who dont really work on cars. And truly, having a background working on Ferrari's does not necessarily quantify thier level of "quality". Some of the best hack work any of have ever seen have come from specialised Ferrari shops. A certain welded piston crown comes to mind, as does mismatched rods, mismatched pistons, yes your very correct, only an experienced Ferrari mechanic could pull off sh*t like that.

But I'll say this once again, it takes a LOT of balls to admit your 308 dropped a belt, especially after going through all this work. I would seriously look into having the belt X-rayed. I am convinced that it is the only way to determine whats going on inside these belts.

 

I HOPE YOUR VERY PROUD OF YOUR EFFORTS THE ENGINE LOOKS FAB FOR ITS AGE AND A REALCREDIT TO YOU FOR TAKING ON SUCH A HARD CHALLENGE

ANDREW

 

Wow!!

 

I would think that a Tensile Tester would be able to provide some good data.

I would be interested to see how the breaking point on this belt compares to the specification for a new one.

http://www.instron.us/wa/applications/test_types/tension/default.aspx

 

Well,

I'll pony up here. I guided Kevin through this procedure. With hundreds of Ferrari belt changes under my belt...and 20+ years of "actual hands-on" experience working on these cars for a living, never mind the many hundreds, possibly well into the 1000's of other non-Ferrari timing belts that I have changed, I guess I could state that this was not an "assembly, or tension related failure". Although I can embrace the theory that a foreign object landed on the tensioner and destroyed the belt, I inspected these components yesterday...and there's not even an iota of evidence to support this theory, anywhere! Of all the speculation here, this theory is conceivable, but not supportable.

And yes...I have a Staeger gauge, but have never used it on any 308, 328 or BB belt change. I save this high-tech marvel for the cars whose belt layout has some degree of complexity, a long single belted car...or some of the Porkos where the factory is insistent on its use. Ferrari was "OK" with the spring in the tension body setting the correct tension, whilst the engine was rotated twice, then locked down when the engine was a TDC for nearly 20 years. If anything, using the original factory prescribed procedures, the belt could (likely) be “under tensioned”, as the spring "ages" over time. But, even that thought is a stretch. For those who have actually seen an "over-tightened belt, the teeth are stripped off. This was not the case here. I believe that when this is resolved, a defective belt will be the root case.

Perhaps, if this job was done at an "Authorized Dealer" a creative story would be fabricated on how it was the owner's fault, in that the Dealer has no control over the parts suppliers, nor are they responsible for hypothetical road debris that mysteriously jumped into the timing belt area, yet left not damage on the pulley or gears, which caused the failure.

And for the theory that "maybe there was a tight valve guide"...Clearly you've never had one of these heads apart, or seen the "quality" guides that Ferrari provides. It's tough to get a valve guide "in-specs", even when purchased new. I embrace the "out of the box" thinking here, but 99.9999999% unlikely.

If one relies soley on the factory provided WSM information and say, torque specifications...and ignore solid experience, these cars would never get put back together. Despite the myraid of Ferrari-related myth's, these engines are simple low-tech designs...that are crammed into tight spaces, with exorbitant part's prices. Oh...but they do make cool sounds!

Now, where's my big hammer and pry bar?

Back to our regularly scheduled program...
David

 

Im not trying to add grief, my apologizes, if he wants he is more than welcome to PM me and i will be more than happy to help him off line. I think the major problem is the guy that did the engine.

I love comments from you and other in reference to the 308 is the simplest...blah, blah...yet there are so many of these cars that have been through meat grinders. Americans have really lost there ways in the last 30 yrs you know...its all about price with you guys...the cheapest and fastest way to do things...quality has been lacking for awhile....all i see on fchat this past year is "Jack of all trades, and Masters of none" I wonder if you need heart surgury if you would be looking for the cheapest Doctor around...ahhh...its a heart, same thing as a lung

An engine maybe an engine, but a ferrari engine and lambo engine are much different to rebuild than a chevy, volvo engine...ask anyone that has done a few, i dont care how many times people say its an easy low tech job......alot of these guys just slap it together using whatever they think they can get away with, over tighting on bolts is the most common...........Do you know why so many 288 GTOs caught fire ? The fuel lines and bolts were aluminum, and were always over tightened...how many people know this ??????

So, if anything, next time anyone wishes to rebuild a ferrari engine and one guy quotes X dollars, and the other guy quotes you X plus 20% think about why.....and go to ferrari specialist that has done more than 1 or 2..there aorund.
Me, i still think its the guy that rebuilt the engine, not the belts and not Kevin....and this foreign object theroy, unless he was driving in a gravel road kicking up boulders, i dont buy it either.