Both the F40 and 959 are icons to same degree in my opinion. The 959 must be rarer, is that correct?
I'm not sure how many F40's were produced but only 200 959's were made. I'm not sure you can fairly compare the two cars inasmuchas the 959 was built to comply with the Gruppe B regulations (along with the Ferrari 288 GTO). That's the comparison that should be made. 288 GTO vs. 959. The California company referred to in an earlier post as modifying 959's for U.S. use is Canepa Design. As I recall, a few years back, the DOT granted the 959 collector car status meaning it is allowed to be imported provided it is only used for collectors events related to the historic significance of the car. I think there was a mileage cap put on as well. Here's what I don't understand. I thought that at the time of importing, the DOT refused to allow the 959 into the U.S. because they viewed it as a race car not a street car and would therefore not grant it roadworthy status. When viewed side by side, doesn't the F40 seem more race car orientated than a 959 Komfort? How did Ferrari get away with it or had regulations changed by then?
Ross, If you can find it somewhere, the January '08 edition of OCTANE had an excellent article comparing the 959 and F40.
The 959 is my favorite Porsche, and I had a great time following one on a 1,200 mile rally in the Big Bend area of Texas last year. It resides in the Boston area, and the 80+ year old owner/driver was hard to keep up with. Here are a couple of pics. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
Boston area ... hmmmm.... is it Herb Chambers? I know he has some rare treats- McLaren F1 for example- but I think he is in his 60's.
Let me help a little bit more here... Canepa did not do the FIRST DOT/EPA conversion. The guys in Houston that converted my '92 EURO 928 GTS were the first. Canepa did his MUCH later than these guys and did a BUNCH of them. I think WETL did 2 or 3 is all... Why they were not let in is not completely clear. If they (NHTSA/DOT) looked at them as race cars they would have been allowed in w/o ANY EPA/DOT restrictions (of course it would have been illegal to drive them anywhere but a race track or private roads). The problem is they are CLEARLY street cars so EPA/DOT DO IN FACT apply and they were not going to let the cars in. That said, I believe Gates, et. al. were trying to get their cars in w/o doing ANY DOT/EPA work on them... Someone else applied for and was granted the right to certify the cars and that was carried out by my buddies down at Wallace Environmental Test Labs (WETL) in Houston. That car was FULLY certified just like my car. It can be driven anywhere as much as the owner wants. Now, Bill Gates did carry enough weight to get a bill signed into law that is the "show car" law if you will. You are restricted to 2500 miles a year (or it may even be less than that...it could be 250 miles, it has been a VERY LONG time since I looked into all this). You do NOT have to do any DOT conversions to the car but you DO have to EPA the car! How about that??? SUCK! They were trying to get that corrected because obviously the point was to be able to bring in rare and unusual cars and keep them stock for show purposes. I don't know if that has been corrected or not. You must APPLY for status as a show/display car! If your car was produced in numbers greater than 400 DREAM ON! You will NOT be allowed to bring the car in. If it does not have some VERY interesting Technological tidbit, FORGET IT! If it was not owned by a King or Prime Minister or other equally interesting person...NOT GONNA HAPPEN! Last I read there were 9 models of cars on the list! That was IT! If you were trying to import something other than one of those 9 well, good luck w/ the feds! As for Ferrari and the F40... I have no idea. The real key is crash testing (to US standards and in the way the US wants you to crash the car) and EPA standards also DOT from a lighting perspective... I guess Ferrari met those w/ the F40. I don't think (and you guys can correct me on this) that the F40 was ever a gray market car... ALL of the 400/412 cars were gray market and all must have their DOT/EPA certificates or you might have a tough time registering them. I think Ferrari handled all the info for the F40 and imported it as a regular car in the line up... Hope that helps a bit anyway. James Austin, TX
I think I saw that one, or one that looked just like it, in Carmel parked at a hotel last August. First 959 I've ever seen in person. . . beautiful car!
Don't know who the owner is now. Originally imported for Chris Hutchins in Maine. He had Paul Russell, who maintains Lauren's 959 #244, change the interior to light brown leather. Only other 959 that had this was one originally sold to peter Grant (LEd Zep Manager). Car was then sold to Bud Lyons (APC battery backup) who owns a few dealerships including a Porsche dealership. I think Chambers may have a 959 now. John Dixon in OH has the first US legal 959, #098.
I don't understand anything about this post... Maybe we have a language barrier. First of all NO 959's were converted by Porsche to be sold in the US as US models... They never bothered to EPA/DOT the cars. Unless something strange happened while I was sleeping. I have NEVER heard of any PORSCHE imported US 959's... So, it would NOT be a US model. Then you say it was not legally imported... If it was a US model (which it could NOT be) then it WOULD be here legally as a US car and would not have to be "imported"... So your first two sentences are diametrically opposed... Of course there are SEVERAL US Registered Importers (RI's as they are known in the biz) who have imported quite a few 959's. More than likely it is NOT a US 959 and it IS here legally through an RI conversion to EPA/DOT. It could also be here on the show/display law which still requires EPA certs but does not require DOT certs but will limit the car to something less than 2500 miles a year (and it might be 250 miles, I can't remember right now) and those miles MUST be in conjunction with a show or a display. Possible but unlikely that it could have been brought in as a "race car", but man that would be tough to pass off with a car that has a full interior and no roll cage... YMMV James Austin, TX
It is Bud Lyons, and he may have sold it since then. He and his wife are a fun couple, and have quite a collection of cars as well.
I never said it was converted by Porsche. John's car is a US LEGAL 959. So is Bud's. It is a US legally certified DOT and EPA car. US legal, that's the way the RI and ICI programs work. Porsche did import (through Al Holbert) eight or more 959 sports model which Porsche intended to sell as US models. But DOA and EPA didn't buy Porsche's argument that the cars were street cars. They had roll bars. The feds ruled they were race cars.
knowing how effortless it is to drive a Porsche 911, 930, of that era etc. as compared to most ALL other exotics. I can only imagine driving that ridiculously advanced but comfortable car must be amazing. I like the comparison with the Mclaren the best, both technically advanced AND luxurious at the same time. Awesome car!
What I read was that Porsche had produced approximately 30 959s for import to the US, but refused to give up two of them for crash testing, so DOT denied them importation.
Isn't the car able to be imported and registered for the road when the car turns 25 years old. I looked on the Canepa Design website and it says it is fully emissions compliant. Is that just under the show/display law or can it be registered as a regular car?
They are great cars. Definitely an icon. I do have to agree with SSINSTR on one point though... winning the Paris Dakar is pretty impressive but also baffling... I mean, what's the point? That doesn't make it a great sports car, that just makes it a great off road rally car or whatever. I'm guessing there aren't many 959 owners who plan to take theirs off road.. it just doesn't make sense anyways, berryman mentioned John Dixon's in Ohio.. it's in Dayton, literally next door to my old high school, I haven't seen it though. John told me it got backed into by a teenage girl at a gas station a couple months ago.
I remember a magazine saying that the GTO was the car that didn't make it on time to Group B and that the rally version was the GTO Evoluzione from which Ferrari then decided to make the F40. A little confusing to me as I thought that the GTO was the street car and that the rally car had to look pretty much like it, from there they built prototypes for the F40. So which version is the correct one? I can't imagine a raised GTO Evoluzione with 650bhp off road, insane!!!
That was a great day. An amazing line up of p-cars. I think the 959 was a sport addition. The 934 in your pic was stunning too.
The point was that it was an homoligation for group B. They were rally cars. And I'm surprised you dont' think great rally cars make great sports cars. Everytime I see a tarmac stage in a rally I sure don't think "huh, that's no sports car." Quite the opposite.
Winning the Paris-Dakar not only shows how a car can beat a truck at it's own game, which is a great testament to the amazing engineering and design, but to also see an 'exotic' car run such grueling conditions and finish. Heck, Ferrari's have enough problems just being reliable on paved tarmac. The 959 is an iconic car that showed the world a fast sports car can be reliable. That's what Porsche is great at....and to have it win the most demanding off road race (where it is subjected to complete torture) is something you can't scoff at.
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/import/ShowDisplay/howtosd072003.html http://www.nhtsa.gov/cars/rules/import/ShowDisplay/sdlist07312007.htm VEHICLES DETERMINED ELIGIBLE FOR IMPORTATION FOR SHOW OR DISPLAY Aston Martin DB7 Zagato Coupe 2003 Aston Martin Vanquish Zagato 2004 Aston Martin Vantage LeMans 1999 - 2000 Audi Sport Quattro 1984 Australian Ford Falcon XC Bathurst Cobra 1978 BMW Hossack K100RS Prototype M/C 1984 BMW Z1 1988 - 1991 Bugatti EB110 1992 - 1995 Ferrari Enzo #400 (Pope John Paul II) 2005 Ford RS200 Evolution 1985 - 1986 Ford Sierra Cosworth RS 500 1986 Gruter & Gut (GG) Duetto Sidecar M/C 1997 Italdesign Aztec 1988 Jaguar XJ220 1992 - 1994 Lamborghini Diablo GT 1999 Lotus Opel Omega (LHD) 1990-1992 Maserati MC 12 2004 - 2005 McLaren F-1 1993 - 1998 Mercedes Benz 560 SEL Ex-Gorbachev armored 1991 Mercedes Benz AMG CLK-DTM Coupe 2005 Mercedes Benz CLK DTM AMG Cabriolet 2006 Mercedes Benz CLK-GTR Coupe 1998 - 1999 Mercedes Benz CLK-GTR Roadster 2002 MGTF 80th Anniversary� Limited Edition (RHD/UK) 2004 Peugeot 205 Turbo 16 1984 - 1985 Porsche 911 Carrera 4S (last made) 1998 Porsche 959 1987 - 1988 Porsche 993 Carrera RS 1996 Porsche GT1Strasseversion 1997 Porsche GT1 1998 RMA Amphi-Ranger 2800 SR 1985-1995 Rover Mini Cooper S (last 50 made) 2000
Give or take there are about 45 in the US I have an older copy of the list of ALL cars brought in under Show & Display (individaual cars with VINs etc) and there are a ton of 959's on there. The number has surely gone up since then too
