360 F1 Pump problems and solutions

Shumdit · Apr 30, 2008

To revive this thread: Why would you not put a 50 Amp Circuit Breaker in line as mentioned and just carry a spare 30 Amp relay with you in the car so if it ever tripped, you would just replace the 30 AMP relay then and there and then reset the Circuit Breaker?? Minimal downtime and no need for a tow to home or a dealer?

rustybits · Apr 30, 2008

Because usually by the time the fuse has blown, the damage has been done. The relay sticks, the motor burns out then the fuse blows. Sucks really, but that's how it is.

mrpcar · May 4, 2008

(1). Find a motor with more torque (adaptor mounting plate needed), so it will draw less AMP which will prevent the relay to overheat and weld together

(2). Change to a relay that can handle more AMPs. (Looks like this is what Ferrari decided to do)

traknut · May 5, 2008

lmpdesigner said: ↑

Hey there to everyone with a 360 that has had trouble with their F1 pump failing and those that will have a problem--which is everyone!

For those of us with a 360 F1 sooner or later you will run into a failure of the electrical motor that drives the hydraulic pump for the paddle shift. The motor "overheats", usually at around 20k to 25k miles, but can happen sooner or later.

As usual, the replacement part from Ferrari is way overpriced and actually doesn't fix the real problem.

So, having my pump go bad, I decided to investigate why they fail and what can be done about it, and here is what I have found. (And I may not have the whole answer or all of the answers!)

1.) The pump is a 12 volt dc motor from Hitachi that looks to be either a blower motor or a windshield wiper motor.

2.) The hydraulic pump assembly is a standard "gearpump" assembly that is very reliable and bulletproof.

3.) The pump assembly bolts to the DC motor via 2 bolts and is a completely separate part. (This is important for reasons below!)

4.) The pump is actuated via the perssure switch in the hydraulic accumulator (and door-but that is not really important.)

5.) The pump receives power via a 30 amp relay behind the passenger seat.

Now it is the 30 amp relay that is the real culprit. Evidently, the relay can overheat (due to the motor drawing over 30 amps at times) and when it does the contacts inside the relay warp and or weld together. The result is that the relay is constantly "on", even when the pressure switch in the accumulator is telling it to stop.

Because the motor is running and trying to pump the hydro fluid to about 50 bar, but as the accumulator is already fully pressurized the electrical motor stalls, causing it to overheat and short out. So, because there is a $40.00 relay that has failed, you wind up with a burnt out motor. So you go to Ferrari to get a new one a find out they cost about $2000.00!!, or you go to Rutlands, etc. and get a cost of $1650.00!! A lot of money for this bit!!

Now, on the 360 CS the relay has been replaced with a 50 amp unit (Wonder why?) but you cannot simply replace your 30 amp relay with the 50 amp unit because the insertion lugs are different and will not fit a 360 socket!

So even if you buy a new pump/motor assembly, you will wind up burning out that unit eventually. Incidently, the dealer replaces the relay whenever they do a pump change--just to be safe! But you still have not fixed anything!!!

So what to do?

I suggest the following:

1.) If your motor goes bad, remove it yourself (30 minutes job-piece of cake to get at.) or have your mechanic remove it, and bring it to a local electrical repair house and have them rebuild it for you--it should be about $100.00 and will be as good as new, if repairable. (And it may not be!)

2.) Replace the relay-I would do this no matter what, if your car has over 10k on it. The cost is nothing and may extend pump life.

So, what else can you do. Not much as things stand-but I am working on a proper solution, as follows:

1.) A jumper plug or cable that will connect the 50 amp CS relay onto the 360 socket. This will allow you to run with the more powerful relay, which should solve most of the overheating problems.

2.) I am also working on a replacement DC motor that would use the existing pump assembly. This means your fluid connections and pump performance is as factory. I would replace the "factory" DC motor with a more high performance motor, one designed to run 100% duty cycle and survive. The issue is that the size and mounting will be different, and I will need to machine up an adapor plate to connect the pump to "my" motor.

3.) I am also looking at incoporporating a torque limiting clutch into the design, so that, if the motor stalls, the clutch will allow the motor to freewheel until the stall goes away. This would be a good safeguard on the system.

4.) I am also looking at adding an alarm (warning light) that you could put somewhere on the dash, telling you if the pump is running or running over a certain length of time, etc.

5.) I am going forward with 1 and 2 above, maybe 3 and 4 and need feedback from the F-Chat community, namely:

1.) Would anybody be interested in this kit? I have no prices but would imagine that a motor, adaptor plate, mount bracket to attach to car should be a lot less than the $1640.00 that we must now pay, maybe half or less, and a better product to boot! If I could get a small production run, then the prices would drop-so the more the better.

So anyhow-if ayone has had F1 pump issues, or wnats more info or wants to add thier advice or comments-please let me know what you are thinkin!
Click to expand...

I am interested. I have a 2001 360 with 28,000 miles on it.

coxyboy · Apr 24, 2009

Just read your explanation of how the F1 pump works,yesterday i came home switched the Engine off but something kept running i now think its the F1 pump youve been talking about,the inside cover of the grey relay is burned and ive ordered a new one but will the motor be ok or will it have been burnt out?Two questions will the new relay be damaged if i fit it with a damaged motor and where is the motor ,sorry three questions have you made a modified kit yet? Nigel

psorella · Apr 24, 2009

Wish I had read this sooner. I have a an 04 360 coupe with 24000 km's and my brother has an 02 spider. We would both be interested in a kit to solve the f1 pump issues. Knock on wood, have not had any problems yet in three years of ownership...

LS

rustybits · Apr 24, 2009

psorella said: ↑

Wish I had read this sooner. I have a an 04 360 coupe with 24000 km's and my brother has an 02 spider. We would both be interested in a kit to solve the f1 pump issues. Knock on wood, have not had any problems yet in three years of ownership...

LS
Click to expand...

there isn't a kit. If you use the search facility you will find many, many threads on this subject. Honest truth? Change the relay, fit the newer type pump and forget about it.

matkat · Apr 25, 2009

RossoCorsaItaly said: ↑

F355 owners may be more interested, their pump costs $15,000+
Click to expand...

Kevin, sorry but this is factually incorrect however the party(Ferrari) line is that you can only change the whole module which includes the hydrauliuc module which is perfectly ok and the electric motor which is not! when I repaired mine I had all the cost horror stories until I started thinking about it logically i.e. there was no way Ferrari would design and build just the complete unit there just had to be this part powering something else and in the 355 F1 case I am led to beieve that the motor is in an Alfa but do not know for sure, anyway see the link for how I repaired it at a considerably less price than $15K its an easy read and the fix was just as easy and took about an hour.
Dave
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=141089

netman · Apr 26, 2009

I drive an 03 spider and would like in on a kit to mitigate the relay / pump motor failure. Just ordered a relay from Ricambi as a preventative measure.

coxyboy · Aug 12, 2009

Hi i wrote about a couple of months ago when i had trouble with my F1 pump,as we all know it needs a 50 amp relay which i ordered but on trying to fit it onto the standard 30 amp socket the pins were too big!!But when i looked closely only the two larger pins wouldnt go in so i took them to my workshop and filed them down a little tricky but no big deal untill they fitted then the relay fitted and everything worked fine now with a 50 amp relay.But alass yesterday the pump motor finally gave up i think it had been damaged when the first 30 amp relay siezed up,I am now going to buy a new motor cost here is around £600 pounds but when i fit it it will be working with a 50 amp relay Nigel

jgelovani · Dec 26, 2009

lmpdesigner said: ↑

Hey there to everyone with a 360 that has had trouble with their F1 pump failing and those that will have a problem--which is everyone!

For those of us with a 360 F1 sooner or later you will run into a failure of the electrical motor that drives the hydraulic pump for the paddle shift. The motor "overheats", usually at around 20k to 25k miles, but can happen sooner or later.

As usual, the replacement part from Ferrari is way overpriced and actually doesn't fix the real problem.

So, having my pump go bad, I decided to investigate why they fail and what can be done about it, and here is what I have found. (And I may not have the whole answer or all of the answers!)

1.) The pump is a 12 volt dc motor from Hitachi that looks to be either a blower motor or a windshield wiper motor.

2.) The hydraulic pump assembly is a standard "gearpump" assembly that is very reliable and bulletproof.

3.) The pump assembly bolts to the DC motor via 2 bolts and is a completely separate part. (This is important for reasons below!)

4.) The pump is actuated via the perssure switch in the hydraulic accumulator (and door-but that is not really important.)

5.) The pump receives power via a 30 amp relay behind the passenger seat.

Now it is the 30 amp relay that is the real culprit. Evidently, the relay can overheat (due to the motor drawing over 30 amps at times) and when it does the contacts inside the relay warp and or weld together. The result is that the relay is constantly "on", even when the pressure switch in the accumulator is telling it to stop.

Because the motor is running and trying to pump the hydro fluid to about 50 bar, but as the accumulator is already fully pressurized the electrical motor stalls, causing it to overheat and short out. So, because there is a $40.00 relay that has failed, you wind up with a burnt out motor. So you go to Ferrari to get a new one a find out they cost about $2000.00!!, or you go to Rutlands, etc. and get a cost of $1650.00!! A lot of money for this bit!!

Now, on the 360 CS the relay has been replaced with a 50 amp unit (Wonder why?) but you cannot simply replace your 30 amp relay with the 50 amp unit because the insertion lugs are different and will not fit a 360 socket!

So even if you buy a new pump/motor assembly, you will wind up burning out that unit eventually. Incidently, the dealer replaces the relay whenever they do a pump change--just to be safe! But you still have not fixed anything!!!

So what to do?

I suggest the following:

1.) If your motor goes bad, remove it yourself (30 minutes job-piece of cake to get at.) or have your mechanic remove it, and bring it to a local electrical repair house and have them rebuild it for you--it should be about $100.00 and will be as good as new, if repairable. (And it may not be!)

2.) Replace the relay-I would do this no matter what, if your car has over 10k on it. The cost is nothing and may extend pump life.

So, what else can you do. Not much as things stand-but I am working on a proper solution, as follows:

1.) A jumper plug or cable that will connect the 50 amp CS relay onto the 360 socket. This will allow you to run with the more powerful relay, which should solve most of the overheating problems.

2.) I am also working on a replacement DC motor that would use the existing pump assembly. This means your fluid connections and pump performance is as factory. I would replace the "factory" DC motor with a more high performance motor, one designed to run 100% duty cycle and survive. The issue is that the size and mounting will be different, and I will need to machine up an adapor plate to connect the pump to "my" motor.

3.) I am also looking at incoporporating a torque limiting clutch into the design, so that, if the motor stalls, the clutch will allow the motor to freewheel until the stall goes away. This would be a good safeguard on the system.

4.) I am also looking at adding an alarm (warning light) that you could put somewhere on the dash, telling you if the pump is running or running over a certain length of time, etc.

5.) I am going forward with 1 and 2 above, maybe 3 and 4 and need feedback from the F-Chat community, namely:

1.) Would anybody be interested in this kit? I have no prices but would imagine that a motor, adaptor plate, mount bracket to attach to car should be a lot less than the $1640.00 that we must now pay, maybe half or less, and a better product to boot! If I could get a small production run, then the prices would drop-so the more the better.

So anyhow-if ayone has had F1 pump issues, or wnats more info or wants to add thier advice or comments-please let me know what you are thinkin!
Click to expand...

Would you please review my thread advise me what to do next:
"360 F1 Hydraulic Pump Relay Pictures (inside)"

Thank you in advance.

Apache · Aug 24, 2024

Yesterday (8/23) I was driving and after 10 miles I got a Red Blinking warning light. I have found a burnt A30 F1 Pump fuse. I replaced it with my tool kit A30 Spare. The Red Blinking light went away, and I was able to shift into gear. After idling for 5 minutes - the Red Blinking light returned.

After reading more here - I am confident that it has to be the F1 Pump Relay. I need the Part Number to order the correct replacement.

If anyone can provide a part number or a link - greatly appreicate it in advance.

tazandjan · Aug 24, 2024

You do not want the stock Ferrari 30 amp relay, which will burn out again. You can replace it with a Tyco V23134-B57-366, which is BMW part number 61.36-8 366 646. I have had one in mine for a decade with no problems.

Qavion · Aug 25, 2024

https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/posts/140254670/

I don't understand how a relay can cause a fuse to blow. Usually a faulty relay presents a high resistance which means local heating at the relay and less current at the fuse.

It may be the pump motor.

Apache · Aug 26, 2024

So you're saying the the problem may not be the Relay?

Apache · Aug 26, 2024

So I'm driving Friday afternoon, on the way to meet my GF for happy hour and suddenly my Red Warning Light started flashing. When I came to a stop, the Auto shifted to Neutral. After researching here, I learned that it could be a fuse problem. I inspected the F1 Pump fuse and found it blown (attached).

I replaced it with the only one A30 in my Emergency Kit. It started, the Red Warning Light was gone. I put in gear, drove about 10 feet, stopped to move the other car out the way... get back in and the Red Warning Light is flashing again... and I have no more A30 Fuses.

After reading more here, I am inclined to belive that it may be the F1 Pump Relay.

Reading Reply #39 - I am not sure of anything right now except the fuse is the problem.

Any help - confirmation, directions will be greatly appreciated!!
Image Unavailable, Please Login

tazandjan · Aug 26, 2024

Whoops, that should be X266, not X366. Typo.

Qavion · Aug 26, 2024

Apache said: ↑

So you're saying the the problem may not be the Relay?
Click to expand...

Generally relays fail in one of two ways....

1) contacts fuse together making the pump run continuously. Is your pump doing this?
2) coil goes open circuit causing the pump not to work. Is your pump doing this?

However, as there is probably a diode across the coil in this heavy duty relay, the diode may short out. If the fuse also supplies the coil (and diode), then it's possible the fuse might blow. Let me check the diagrams....

Qavion · Aug 26, 2024

Qavion said: ↑

Let me check the diagrams....
Click to expand...

The coil is not directly powered by the fuse but by the TCU. The TCU is supplied by the smaller yellow fuse and key power.

The pump is known to draw a lot of current, more so as it gets older. That's why companies like Scud-Ing Swiss create relays which help manage the current.

Try the relay. Stranger things have happened which cannot be explained by known logic.

RayJohns · Aug 26, 2024

The Fuse is not the problem, the fuse is the insurance. Find what is causing the fuse to blow out. In normal operation of any electrical circuit, the fuse should never fail or burn out except to protect the circuit.

Some where there is a problem and your fuse is the last line of defense against something else either catching on fire or failing in a much more drastic / expensive way.

Ray

Apache · Aug 27, 2024

MalibuGuy said: ↑

Hi- I own a 2003 360 Modena and I have 34K miles so I am very interested in what you have posted. BTW very nice research on your part! Are you a mechanic?
I looked at my owners manual and the F1 system relay you described being located behind the passenger seat in my car is made by Siemens: part V23134-B57-X203.
I wondered if this is the same one that is in your car? I know that Ferrari made alot of upgrades to the car over time trying to fix design flaws.

I also saw in my manual that there are two F1 pump fuses behing the drivers seat. Why don't these fuses prevent the problems you described from happening?
Click to expand...

When the RELAY fails - does it cause the 30 Amp fuse to burn out? I have the RED Flashing Warning Light. Will not shift out of Neutral.
I replaced the 30 Amp fuse, lights all clear, shifts into gear - after about 10 minutes the RED Flashing Warning Light returns.

What is the correct 1-2-3 Fix and Repair Steps???

Thanks.
"Stranded 360"

Apache · Aug 27, 2024

Qavion said: ↑

Generally relays fail in one of two ways....

1) contacts fuse together making the pump run continuously. Is your pump doing this?
2) coil goes open circuit causing the pump not to work. Is your pump doing this?

However, as there is probably a diode across the coil in this heavy duty relay, the diode may short out. If the fuse also supplies the coil (and diode), then it's possible the fuse might blow. Let me check the diagrams....
Click to expand...

No. Mine is not continuously running. It is not running at all. I have the RED Flashing Warning Light. I checked the F1 A30 fuse behind the Driver Seat and found the burned out fuse. I replace it with the spare. The RED light cleared, shifted to gear. After about 10 minutes - the RED light returned, A30 fuse burned out again.

Qavion · Aug 27, 2024

Apache said: ↑

Mine is not continuously running. It is not running at all.
Click to expand...

It does sounds like a faulty motor.

I suppose I should ask "Does the pump run continously before the fuse blows (causing the pump not to run at all)"

Depending on the type of motor, pumps draw maximum current at start up. It's normal for the pump to cycle on and off (to stop the pump overheating and to maintain pressure). If the motor is good, the fuse shouldn't blow if the pump is running continuously or stopping and starting.

I'm not sure what to suggest next. If it happened again and you immediately replaced the fuse and jumpered the relay (for a few seconds), the pump may work, but it may simply be because the pump has had time to cool down. It wouldn't prove that the relay was faulty.
I'm not going to recommend jumping the relay for a long time. If the motor is faulty, it's putting stress on the wiring, fuse and motor. I wouldn't want you to start a fire.

I suppose you could buy a current tester which you can plug into fuse sockets to monitor current. Some have a function which remembers peak current. You can fit the pump fuse to the tester to protect the wiring.

Apache · Aug 27, 2024

Thanks to everyone that shared their experience - absolutely valuable information. Ferrari Chat is the BEST.

I was able to resolve my RED Flashing F1 Warning Light trouble. Gearshift engage display stuck in "N"eutral.

Solution:
1. Replace the F1 System Pump Relay. Upgrade from the X203 to the X152. (BMW ABS Relay Part Number 6136-1-393-40 (Tyco V23134-B57-X152): $35.00
2. Replace the F1 System Pump A30 Maxi Fuse: NAPA: $5.00

RED Flashing F1 Warning Light gone. Gearshift normal. Trouble solved.

I did notice that the F1 Pump Motor seem to run more quiet and quicker.

Thanks to my fellow 360 Tifosi's ~

MalibuGuy · Aug 28, 2024

Its been a decade since i owned the 360
I recall that my F1 pump system failed and was replaced
I also did the fuse upgrade
The actual pump can be rebuilt or re-sourced
The same exact part was being made by another company for a fraction of the price
Im sure that now with aftermarket sales you can find a good price

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