Detailing - Dropped polishing cloth

Todd does know his paint, and he does know what he is talking about.

Remember that MF towels are drastically different than old terry cloth type towels. The microscopic strands of material have a very "magnetic" type of personality. Not only do they grab material and hold on to it, once they hold it and lock it into their structure, it is very difficult if not impossible to release it.

Now yes, big particles like rocks or sand can be released during a wash simply due to their size, but still this isn't always the case. There are other types of particles, like small organic matter like tiny blades of grass or leaves that can get entangled in the towel more deeply than a wash or any other method can remove.

You'd think that with the type of response we have gotten from some in saying that they shouldn't be used on paint anymore that we were saying you should buy something huge and expensive. These towels are dirt cheap, and even if you use the good ones, we still aren't saying that you should throw them away. Just use them on your interior, or your carpet, or to clean your fender wheels or tires or engine bay. That's it. You drop it, mark it with a sharpie, grab a fresh one, and move on. Plain and simple.

Each towel may not be totally worthless after you drop it, but remember it only takes one that is contaminated with something big in order to put plenty of scratches in your finish to ruin your day.

 

They should be used on paint IMO since even diapers or supposedly 100% cotton towels seem to have a small amount of nylon or some other fiber that can scuff paint even when cleaned properly.

Microfibers towels that are properly cleaned will not marr or scuff paint due to the nature of their fibers like cotton or terry.

Beyond that they are a joy in that they suck up streaks and smears like a vaccum so the extra effort to keep clean is well worth it IMO.

 

Interestingly, in the most recent issue of "Excellence" the Porsche magazine there was a big article on car washing.

The pictures were taken with all the sponges and washcloths sitting wet on the driveway! I kid you not!

 

I have to laugh when I hear this stuff. Does anyone consider what the dust particles in the air do to your paint finish when they impact your car at 80MPH. Probably a lot more damage than you could ever imagine. The answer would be to have the car washed in a hermetically sealed, dust free environment, exit the environment carefully and NEVER TOUCH THE CAR AGAIN!

You OCD guys are a crack up.

 

I'm not against a little humor. Yeah the front of track cars get sandblasted basically.

Not talking about track cars in this case. Many who think their cars scratch and scuff free would be amazed at the level of marring when a halogen light shined across the surface reveals the imperfections. That said i'd not worry if the scratches could only be seen under light. What harm done if they can't be seen right????

The difference is that a car properly sanded and buffed gives off a glow and a shine that looks wet and deep. No amount of fillers or silicones can substitute for this look.

It's a case of once you've done it right and seen the results you can't go back.

 

I'm not talking about track cars either. Any freeway driving will have you at speeds that will cause microscopic damage from dust and sand, especially on well used public roads and even more so if a truck carrying sand has been in the vicinity. This will cause way more damaged than will a washed microfiber cloth. It you want to maintain a car's finish at 100% it will have to have straight from the factory paint shop into a sealed environment. It's simply not possible. Just parked in the cleanest garage will allow the car to be invaded by dust.

I just don't get it I guess. These are cars we are talking about, not Rembrandts or Monets?

 

The damage from driving is mostly confined to the nose. When a microfiber has a grain of sand or a piece of a leaf stem or whatever in it it puts scars all over the car since you wipe the cloth over the entire car.

If it's not a concern no biggie. Don't think anyone's trying to dictate to anyone how to maintain their car just trying to help others who have concerns regarding MF towels and marring.

My car is a peice of Italian art to me.

 

I understand the art aspect entirely. I have a 50 year old Ferrari that looks more spectacular today than ever, and it draws admiring crowds whenever it is out. It has a 2nd in Class At Pebble Beach and it has been invited back, but if you look closely in bright sunlight or under a halogen light it has imperfections in the paint, I suspect caused by dust on the car when the cover goes on.
Those imperfections are part and parcel of the car and I don't believe they detract at all from its beauty. It also means that I don't fret when I take it out for its weekend excercise, because sand grains will get on the car and dust will settle on it. I wipe it off with a static charged duster, but even that leaves dust behind. My point is that, for me, there is far greater enjoyment in driving it and therefore exposing it to the elements, than trying to protect its finish at all costs.

 

X1000. the anality here is JUST RIDICULOUS. Your garage's (if like mine) is NOT a clean room. This are small particles everywhere that can FALL on your microfiber cloth. You do not DRIVE in a clean room (certainly) and that abuse it the absolute worse that can hit your ride. You guys do not give you paint enough credit. Modern paints are quite resilient.

You should always take reasonable precautions to protect your cars paint put paint jobs, themselves, were not meant to last forever.

 

Agreed, a paint job, like a car will not last forever. However, by taking measures to avoid risking damage to the paint as well as a tight regiment, the paint job on your car can look as good as new (or in the case of a properly perfected paint job) or better than new for the reasonable life of the vehicle. Part of the reason that this misconception (that paint will not last the life of the vehicle) persists is because people do not take the time or have the care to properly care for their vehicle's paint and cosmetic's.

It is kind of like saying, well we are all going to die someday so let’s eat McDonalds three times a day, snort 8balls, and play Russian roulette. I think part of this misconception can be laid to rest if we would take more time and truly care for the cosmetics of the car vs. just keeping it clean and assuming that it will wear.

Case in point, this is an original paint 512BBi that has been perfected using my methods and maintained as such. If the original (and cheap) paint on a hand built Ferrari can look this good after 25 years, imagine the level a new car can be brought to and maintained at.
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Your analogy is weak. I don't compare using a washed MF cloth that I dropped on the floor with shooting 8-balls.
I do believe that if ANY cloth were that prone to capturing particles like you say, then it is more problem than it is worth.

MF can trap the particles inside the fibers, so forget about particles from the floor, what about all of the stray particles that are captured in the cloth during the process of washing or drying the car? Going by your theory these cloths should be thrown away after you wash the car or even after EVERY WIPE!

Like I said our cars do not live in a clean room and to think that a machine, that itself produces contaminants, will somehow remain contaminant free is ridiculous.

 

MF toilet paper!! only the best.

 

There are two sides as usuall, and nothing is black & white, but I have to go with Todd. Haven't run across anyone that comes close to his knowledge about detailing.

 

The analogy is obviously tongue in cheek, but my point still stands (and the fact that I disagree with you based on numerous experience). Any time a particle that is harder then the paint's surface is rubbed across the paint you run the risk of marring or etching the paint (even on the microscopic level). This depends on factors such as sharpness and pressure of course. Dust and other natural or airborne contaminants, luckily, don't pose much threat to the finish of most paint jobs (exceptions would be extremely soft paint such as those found on mid 90's Hondas, Bentleys, Range Rovers, and Maserati's). Unless significant pressure is used to grind these types of particles against and into the paint, they do not have the potential to damage the paint.

The reason I still stand behind my tongue and cheek analogy is simple. Your point seems to be (unless I am reading it wrong) since the there are so many variables that are out of control, why go to great lengths to control any. I cannot disagree with your point more strongly... It is because of the variables and factors that we cannot control that we need to be more careful of the damage we expose our car's too (regardless of make and model IMO) when we are supposedly caring for our vehicles. I can tell you that I many cars I have polished to perfection years ago are still 95-99 percent swirl free if the owner (or his/her detailers) follows strict washing guidelines and are OCD to new degree.

Taking this a slightly different direction, one question I am constantly asked is "isn't buffing or taking a machine to the paint dangerous, aren't you removing paint?" The answer is yes it can be dangerous (as in the way most body shops buff paint) and yes you are removing or re-leveling the paint surface. To make paint perfect, it has to be brought down so that the highest point of the paint is where the lowest point of the microscopic scratches used to be. So, correct polishing is only removes the "peaks" or high points. The amount of paint that needs to be removed is directly proportional the amount of paint that has already been removed by incorrect care. That is washing the car with out the highest standard is actually removing paint by gouging at it and scratching the surface, all polishing does is remove the area's that where not damaged as much.

Case in point, I spent about 10 hours getting the paint of a forum member's black GT2 about 95 percent perfect (which is a good reasonable number for daily drivers to maintain, as trying to maintain 100 percent, while possible can become more of a head ache). Of those 10 hours, about 8 where spent on the machine polishing process. One errant car wash by a local detail shop in South Beach damaged the paint surface so bad that it actually looks worse then when we did it 2 months ago. I mean this car is badly swirled and scratched after one bad car wash by some local detailers. They did more damage and removed more paint in 15 minutes, then we removed in 10 hours of high speed machine polishing on the paint (since we are only trying to level off the damage created previously).

So yes there are granules and minerals in the water we use (well not my company as we use only de-ionized water that is scaled at less then 5 PPM) when we wash the car, minerals and granules in the water we use to rinse the micro fibers (which over time will reduce the effectiveness of the micro fiber clothes and clog them) but luckily by using a high lubricity soap when we wash the car (that encapsulates free standing grit on the car) we can control enough variables to render those we cannot control less dangerous or damaging to the paint's surface. So we cannot control the dust in the air or the grit that is blow across the vehicle at 70 MPH (the high pressure area created around the car does a pretty good job of creating a barrier) but we can control 90-95 percent of the variables that actually damage the paint.

I concede that the only way to keep paint perfect would be to have an expert in paint care polish the vehicle, then drive it straight into a sealed environment; this doesn't mean we should disregard the damage that can be inflicted on the paint when we do not take every precaution necessary when we wash it. In fact, like I said (and you disagree) it is because of the factors when cannot control that we need to tighten and eliminated the factors we can control. If you drop your micro fiber on the ground, you risk picking up larger, sharp, and hard particles like sand and rocks that will certainly damage the paint on first contact. Just because you drive your car regularly doesn't mean you would poor sand over your paint and rub into the surface. When you drop a micro fiber on the ground and continue to use it (or use other careless techniques) that is exactly what you are doing.

Again I have many years experience of making paint perfect and maintaining it, so I would like to think I am a pretty valuable resource when it comes to proper paint care and what can be achieved in terms of not only perfection (or taking a finish to its highest potential) but maintaining it at as high as a level as possible. I also have plenty of first hand experience at how much damage is inflicted on the surface by just one improper wash. IME, the more OCD the owner is about washing the car, the longer the paint will last and the longer the paint will shine perfectly.

 

Thank you Phil for the kind words, but I would hate for this to turn into picking sides. I am only speaking for experience and trying to share my knowledge about how much damage is caused by not controlling every factor we can. I don't think anybody on this forum (except for the high end detailers such as Joe Fernandez and Jason) has the experience I have in caring for paint (and those detailers have already chimed in an said the same thing as I have). It only comes down to that for some people, they feel it is not worth the time in doing it (properly caring for the paint). Being that a vehicle is an extension of one's self, I am not going to tell anybody they are wrong in how they choose to care for it. I am only going to present facts and my experience, and those who would like to learn how to better care for their vehicle's are free to take what they will and apply it if they choose.

 

Todd----I am glad there are guys like you who live the detail life and make cars more enjoyable for us to drive and show----You are fighting a losing battle of wits with Chicane----He bashes anything that he does not agree with, there is no agreeing to disagree with him---He will bash and bash----There must not be any bad cop stories on here right now or he would be bashing them and not your detail methods----He is a first class internet troll---Ignore him and move on with your great advice!!!

 

Going by his theory, I would never want any human being to wash my car by hand. If I am using a MF hand mit to wash my car that mit is picking up stray contaminants and scratching the surface of my car. Better to go to a touchless wash at the Shell station...

 

Hi Todd
I'm a new owner and have learned through reading this thread that you are the expert in this subject. I would really appreciate your advice on products to use and where to get them, wash/wax method, and dos and don'ts. Thank you in advance.
Lou


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