355 head rebuild pics | FerrariChat

355 head rebuild pics

Discussion in '348/355' started by enginefxr, May 13, 2008.

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, Skimlinks, and others.

  1. enginefxr

    enginefxr Formula 3

    Aug 20, 2007
    1,753
    S&R Exotics
    Full Name:
    Gary Sharpe
    #1 enginefxr, May 13, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    In another thread I said I would be posting pics of the step by step head rebuilding process. These heads were sent to me by another F-chatter for rebuild after getting poor leakdown numbers. We will be installing new guides, full set of new valves and seals. Along with complete port work of the heads and throttle bodies. For those interested, here we go........

    The first pic is of the heads as I received them.

    The next shows a couple of exhaust valves, note the discoloration up the stem, and the black streaks going from the stem area out to the edge of the valve where it wasn't seating properly.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  2. enginefxr

    enginefxr Formula 3

    Aug 20, 2007
    1,753
    S&R Exotics
    Full Name:
    Gary Sharpe
    #2 enginefxr, May 13, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    This pic shows the head with guides removed. Note the wide shiny seat area on the center intake valve seats. These heads had extreme wear on the intake guides as well as the exhaust guides. The wide seat area is from the valves moving around from the loose guides. Also note the intake and exhaust seats on the far left, the seat area is burnt black and brown from not sealing.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  3. f355spider

    f355spider F1 World Champ
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    May 29, 2001
    18,031
    USA
    What specifications are you confirming to determing the need for new valves. I'm no expert, and curious why some rebuilds require new valves, and some do not.
     
  4. enginefxr

    enginefxr Formula 3

    Aug 20, 2007
    1,753
    S&R Exotics
    Full Name:
    Gary Sharpe
    In this instance, the owner wanted new valves.
    Other times the wear/scuffing on the stem requires new valves or the seat area of the valve can be burnt enough (and sometimes burnt all the way through) that only excess grinding of the valve would make it possible to re-use. Then you get into having to grind the valve tip excessively to keep the valve height in spec, etc....
     
  5. James-NZ

    James-NZ F1 Veteran

    Jun 26, 2007
    5,822
    Hamilton, NewZealand
    Full Name:
    James
    Interesting thread, thanks for taking the time to share this info with us.
     
  6. 285ferrari

    285ferrari Two Time F1 World Champ
    Sponsor

    Sep 11, 2004
    20,950
    MD and NE
    Full Name:
    Robbie
    Good pics!!
     
  7. FandLcars

    FandLcars F1 Rookie

    Aug 6, 2006
    3,057
    Tempe, Az
    Full Name:
    Rick Schumm
    Very interested in following this thread!! :cool:
     
  8. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Nov 19, 2001
    22,612
    The Brickyard
    Full Name:
    The Bad Guy
    Nice thread.
     
  9. AdMac

    AdMac Rookie

    Mar 24, 2008
    34
    Springfield, MO
    Full Name:
    Adam McBurnie
    #9 AdMac, May 14, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    We just recently did a mojor with guides, seals, AND valves. I strongly recommend this be done. We knew the guides were bad but because they dod not seal correctly they have been known to cause valves to be bent and even fry the ends because they get stuck open. IMO this is just a very wise investment, take care of it 1x and never have to go in that deep again.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  10. jm3

    jm3 F1 Rookie

    Oct 3, 2002
    4,364
    United States
    Full Name:
    JM3
    Thanks for the pictures.


    In your opinion, which of the various "F355 Valve Guide Diagnosis" methods would have been best for these particular heads?

    Borescope (fancy or otherwise)

    Compression check

    Leakdown test

    Remove plenum and look at the back of the intake valves

    all of the above

    some of the above

    none of the above


    Jay
     
  11. SGM

    SGM F1 Rookie
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Sep 27, 2006
    2,797
    Rockville, MD
    Full Name:
    Steve
    Great pics and info!!
     
  12. lucky73

    lucky73 Formula Junior

    Mar 13, 2008
    257

    Thus, the is a flaw in the car from day one that takes huge dollars to correct and then you are ok into forever?
     
  13. AdMac

    AdMac Rookie

    Mar 24, 2008
    34
    Springfield, MO
    Full Name:
    Adam McBurnie
    #13 AdMac, May 14, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Our approach on this car was a little different, it was traded needing the major and guides, unknown was the clutch, and valves. We did a compression test to confirm the guides. So I had our tech go in with the "if in question, replace it" mentality. What we have come away with is: the guides leave to much of an unknown, it is common knowledge of their issues but I will strongly recommend to our future F355 customers to do the valves. The way they look just doesn't sit well with me, it is a longevity question for me. Of note is that fact that after we had the car up and running, I called the previous owner (personal friend) to come drive her again. He loved it some much, "best it had run in his 5 years of ownership" ,and he did the first major too, He traded me back.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  14. ferrariwant2be

    ferrariwant2be Karting

    Jan 14, 2008
    87
    I'm definitely interested in hearing more as you go. I will be looking into this during my 30k which i just ordered the kit for. Thanks!
     
  15. enginefxr

    enginefxr Formula 3

    Aug 20, 2007
    1,753
    S&R Exotics
    Full Name:
    Gary Sharpe
    #15 enginefxr, May 14, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    The 1st pic is the cleaned head, removed valve guides and the roughed-in port work. During this time I also radius and clean up all oil return holes.

    The next pic is the final ported intake runners. Note the re-shaped port entrance. Once the bowl area porting is done, the guides are re-installed.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  16. enginefxr

    enginefxr Formula 3

    Aug 20, 2007
    1,753
    S&R Exotics
    Full Name:
    Gary Sharpe
    #16 enginefxr, May 14, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Here is a look at the old guide vs the new Ricambi manganese bronze guide. The old guide looks copper colored, maybe why they are so soft and fail??

    Next is the newly installed guides in the ported heads, guides are then honed to size. HONED to size-- not reamed. Reaming the guides produces a rough finish with lots of torn material which is the polished out by the moving valve resulting in excess clearance right off the bat. The crosshatch pattern of a honed guide does the same thing that crosshatching does in a cylinder- retains a small amount of oil for lubrication.

    The seat tooling uses multi-angle cutters to radius the seat angles into the port and chamber increasing flow. (ALOT better than the single seat angle on the stock exhaust seats.

    Once all valve depths are measured and set to proper specs and equalized, the valves are numbered and lapped into their respective seats to verify seal.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  17. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Nov 19, 2001
    22,612
    The Brickyard
    Full Name:
    The Bad Guy
    Oh, this is great stuff!!! Keep it coming.
     
  18. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner

    Aug 10, 2002
    28,638
    socal
    Great thread Efixer! How did you decide to port it? Did you flow it or did you empirically port it from experiance of what you think should be better flow?
     
  19. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner

    Aug 10, 2002
    28,638
    socal
    Can you comment on the use of why mang-bronze vs. Ferrari factory fix of using a steel guide? There was a thread that actually looked at the guide compostion metalurgically and the oe guide was not inferior metalurgically speaking....dispite their known failure. I do not know the closeness of your MG-bronze guide vs OEM but I thought the oe composition was a mg bronze guide of some type iirc. No one seems to really understand why the guides blow-up but the steel ones seem to hold up. I grew up with mg-bronze guides and always think of them first. Is there possibly a reason to not use mg-bronze in the 355 for fear of repeat valve guide destruction?

    Second can you comment on your opinion of the old school way I was taught which was to lap valves doing 3 angle cuts etc... vs some theories I read that say valves and seats should be matched by the 3 angle cut only and not lapped because upon increase in combustion temps with uneven expansion of parts the now lapped valve will not seal at operating temperature.
    Thanks for sharing your knowledge.
     
  20. 348SStb

    348SStb F1 Rookie
    Owner

    This is indeed great stuff!
     
  21. gothspeed

    gothspeed F1 World Champ

    May 26, 2006
    10,244
    U.S.A.
    Full Name:
    goth
    +1 :)
     
  22. PAP 348

    PAP 348 Ten Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Dec 10, 2005
    100,200
    Mount Isa, Australia
    Full Name:
    Pap
    Interesting thread. Thanks for sharing pics. :):)
     
  23. billyfitness

    billyfitness Formula Junior

    Feb 14, 2006
    581
    Overland Park, KS
    Full Name:
    Bill Leavitt
    This is great info and pics.
    I don't know what you guys think, but I think it is worth the money, if it hasn't been done, to do this during an engine out, especially with a higher mileage car. My '97 is approaching 42K miles and I don't know if the valve guides were replaced or not being the fourth owner. My leakdowns were great on my PPI done at 29K in 2006, I did a complete major six months later, have the service history from Ferrari of Denver and a carfax to trace the locations, registrations, etc, but that's it. I think it's worth saving the $ to perform valves 'n guides during my next major in 2 yrs.
    -Billy
     
  24. enginefxr

    enginefxr Formula 3

    Aug 20, 2007
    1,753
    S&R Exotics
    Full Name:
    Gary Sharpe
    Port work is a combination of flow bench testing and experience.
    I've been porting heads now for 20 years. The stock Ferrari port shape is pretty good, but can be improved. A previous set I ported increased 14.5 cfm on the intake side. I expect these to improve more over their stock configuration, as these are late '95 heads and are very different than the early '95 heads I ported before. I didn't cc the intake runners, but just from appearance, these heads were much smaller than the others. And upon starting the port work, calipers verified my suspicions. The throttle bodies will also be matched to the heads and new port entrance shape, then flowed once again.
     
  25. enginefxr

    enginefxr Formula 3

    Aug 20, 2007
    1,753
    S&R Exotics
    Full Name:
    Gary Sharpe
    One look at the new guide vs the factory guide and you can tell for sure that there is at least SOME difference in composition due to the color difference. Also when the factory guide is machined, the material comes off in a spiral, telling me its soft material, the new guides when machined cut into little chips and you can tell they are definately harder than stock. Put an already soft part into a port with EGT's of 1200 degrees and we can see why the stock ones fail. To me, any steel on steel contact unless fed with a constant supply of fresh oil, is a no-no. Mang-bronze is also somewhat self-lubricating. Put a steel guide and mang-bronze guide under the same stress with no lubrication, the steel will seize, the bronze won't. (or at least will survive longer)
    Not to mention every race head I know of comes with mang-bronze guides.

    Not sure why someone would think that lapped valves would not seat at temp. I only do it to verify the mating surfaces of the valve and seat. When I leakdown an engine, it is brought up to temp, then leaked down ( the only way to do it in my opinion) and I've never seen a problem. After only a short amount of time running, the lightly etched seat and valve (from lapping) appear shiny anyway, just like an un-lapped valve and seat. I actual cutters I use are more than 3 angles, and the exhaust is a full radius.
     

Share This Page