308 V12 conversion begins

Don't think of it as a book, think of it as a tv series only the reruns come in the spring instead of summer.

The stuff I’m doing now is really slow boring (a little pun there) work. Today I sawed the stock for cams 3 and 4 to length and drilled side 1 of cam 3.

Having to make cams probably added 6 months to the project realistically by the time I actually make them then do the head work to take advantage of a customs cam grind. There are a lot of decisions I’ve made on this project that added lots of work….so it looks like there will be at least 1 more season.

Holiday plans so nothing more until next week.

 

Exactly....this is the boring phase. After the drilling I need to turn them which isn't going to be fast.

I would like to do some more flow work on the heads to get a better idea of what kind of flow number I can make before I pick a cam grind since more flow means I can use less duration, and flow work is really slow and boring and then I need to repeat 12 times. I'm hoping I can leave the exhasut side pretty much alone, but if I have to meass with that too....more delays.

By then the block will (I hope) be long done and I can go back fitting the bellhousing and drop gears. This will be a little more interesting since it will almost certainly involve the sawsall in some way and will certainly include welding and a lot of making a big pile on aluminum chip on the milling machine. I might move this ahead of finishing the heads and cams becasue it's just plain more fun.

Then the cylinder linders which will be very boring again. Then a little assemby and it's ready to drive

You might have meant to pm me, but you clicked the email button. I'll get the cylinder puller boxed up and out after the holiday if thats ok?? what else do you need? I've got 12 connecting rods that will fit , you can have 1st dibs before I list them on ebay. I don’t know what else.

 

Still drilling. 3 down 1 to go.

 

More drilling, cam 4 side 1 done and a little on side 2. Hopefully I'll finish tomorrow.

I think I’m going to go back through them all with a slightly larger bit to try and straighten out the holes a bit…it doesn’t really matter, but I think it’s worth a try ….if nothing else it will save a little weight and every little bit helps to get a decent hp to weight ratio. With the extra drilling it will be around 4.199999:1 (lb/hp) instead of a useless 4.2:1

 

Finally done.....almost. I've got a 3/8" hole in all 4 now but I thing I'm going to open them up to 7/16 and see if the hole clean up a little better.

 

I took the worst cam blank tonight and drilled to 7/16 statring from the opposite end I did the 3/8 hole from and then started a 1/2 hole from the opposite end I did the 7/16 from and it looks a lot straighter so far....I need a longer 1/2" bit to finish though....so anouther week of drilling.

Hopefully the first of them will be on the lathe thursday or friday to start roughing in the profile. The guys in the shop at work are going to slide them in on the CNC lathe which will be a huge help, I need to tune up the electronic part model/drawing to make it easier for them to program.

 

It's not lazy, there are just way too many pages in this thread to read though. In hind sight, besides not starting the project, I should have broken the thread up into more manageable pieces and just put links in a common thread…next time.

The main thing is block needs to be line bored so the crank journals are straight and bearing fit. It wrapped quite a bit with all the welding and was WAY out of spec. I roughed it back in close, but I don’t have the correct machines to finish the job.

After the line bore is done they will re-cut the cylinder decks parallel to the crank journals for me since my machine is really not big enough to do the job properly. I also asked them to cut the counterbores in the decks for the cylinder liners to seat in.

 

I had to make a drill longer tonight...to cheap to order a new one plus I haven't had any new pictures for quite a while any way. Finished drilling the hole, it's bettert than it was, but doesn't seem like it was worth the effort so I think I'm going to leave the other 3 alone I guess. Off to the lathe with them now.
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In the 1st pic the drill bit is on the right, a piece of round stock on the left. Both are weld prep'd and clamped in a vee block to hole them straight.

In the 2nd pic the drill bit is in the lathe chuck with most of it hidden inside the spindle. You can see the finished weld joint about an inch outside the spindle. I whacked it with a mallet until it was pretty straight.

The 3rd pic shows the weld and drill extension machined straight and to size.

The 4th pic is the new longer drill bit in action.

 

On the engine mounting, the 308 engine is transverse so that seemed the best way to go with the v12. After I got started someone pointed out a TR or boxer engine and trans might fit....and after measuring it looks like it would by removing the trunk and a little frame work. The car would probably be running now had I gone that way. Oh well, this way it will look pretty stock when it's done which I really like....even if it is 10 times more work

 

The V engine sits pretty high too, so I don't know if anything is gained there.....I mostly just like that the frame and body stays stock.

I think the V12 will not be making any more torque than the supercharged V8 I took out which was around 400 ft-lbs so I think I'm be ok there. The clutch was the real problem and only lasted about 15 seconds so I had to upgrade it and never had another problem. I'll be using the same clutch on the V12, it's rated for 800 ft-lbs.

 

No, about the same weight 'd think. The TR enigine sits pretty high because the trans goes under it to keep the package short. That's the only reason it would fit at all, but it makes the CG higher than you would expect for a flat engine.

 

TB size.
Normally you want the intake track to taper big to small from the velocity stack to the valve. Also a throttle plate is a flow restriction so a 38mm throttle will not flow as well as a 38mm port. The Suzuki TBs have a 46mm bore and plate then right below the throttle the bore drops to 42mm. I think the big Kawasaki and Yamaha have a 44 or 42 mm throttle and the same step down so they might be a better match to your ports. I’m porting the snot out of my heads and wondering if the TB I have are even big enough

Water pump.
I personally don’t like electric water pumps and won’t be using one. There are some advantages, but over-all I think there are more disadvantages. The big one for me is the electric power required. I’m thinking I’m building a 700hp engine and cooling it would take around 40 amps (at 12V) I think. That means either a massive single alternator or 2 small ones and with wiring and controls it just seems like more weight and trouble then it’s worth. Then add the fact that no OEM car company does it and I have to believe it’s not the best option if a belt driven pump can be used.

Ignition.
This is a tough one I’m not sure what I’m going to do yet. I’ve never seen a hp gain fro a COP, directfire or waste spark vs a distributor so that is not what will drive the decision. It’s most likely going to come down to the electronics cost and complexity and a little bit or appearance.

I’m thinking the ECU will be a VEMS because it’s inexpensive and I have an offer from one of the company principles to help with the set-up and installation. The unit has 20 channels so I should have quite a few options, but I kind of get the feeling that it’s really not programmed to deal with more than 8 cylinder, I might have that wrong though. The suggestion that was made was to run waste spark (or twin distributor as a period correct alternate) and multipoint injection with means the software could be told it’s running a 6 cylinder. I’m pretty sure this would work fine…but I’m not sure about idle and low power operation since I’m really looks like I’m building a race engine at this point and the low end will need all the help it can get.

I could buy a Haltech E11 and have a good choices. 2 distributors and full sequential injection, or wastespark and semi-sequential injection.

The next step up would be a motec M800 which could do what other E11 could or with a couple ignition expansion boxes could do direct fire (or COP) and full sequential injection….but it’s a ton more money and lots of electronics to mount.

Then there are the less clean options. I could run 2 separate VEMS or E11s ECUs and run the engine as two separate 6 cylinders. This is 2 boxes vs 3 with the motec solution but more wires, sensors and pickups to deal with so probably a net loss.

I could use a megasuirt (like you are doing I think) which again means and ECU and then 2 separate ignition controllers. I don’t think this is a good option for me both because of the number of boxes and more importantly the megasuirt is limited to 12x12 fuel and ignition maps which is simply not enough to run a 9000 rpm engine even close to properly. This one is out.

I don’t know what I’m going to end up with……