Boosting compression ratio on F360

The cost vs gain makes it a futile exercise. You might feel the full 1 point gain, maybe. The best way to do it is through piston selection rather than cutting the heads down. If you went from 8.8:1 to 12:1 then the gain would be worth it. Add a blower and gain 150HP that way for the same cost as raising your compression ratio 1 point.

 

Have you driven the 360 so much as to determine that it needs more compression? What modifications do you currently have to increase power?
12 or 13:1 would be great, but should be done with custom pistons.

 

Yes, blower or turbo would be the way to proceed.

 

Have you guys priced a turbo kit for a 360 lately? The Novitec one is $54000.00 (installed, I believe). Norwood would be another turn key source if they do one from the 360, but I can't find prices on their website.

The suggestion to replace pistons is interesting. I'm not engineering-savvy in terms of engine work, so can someone explain why going with taller pistons is better than shaving the head? Sorry if the answer is obvious.



Lou

 

Have no personal experience with such mods, but I would think changing pistons/rods is a better idea because it can be undone more easily if you want to change C.R. back down later on, or return to stock. Milling a head is a permanent change, unless I'm unaware of some expensive metal spray or other method to build them back up. I'm sure heads are more $ than pistons/rods when it comes to lowering C.R. ...... HTH

 

Milling the head changed valve to piston clearance and can lead to damage. New pistons have deeper pockets for valve clearance when higher than stock ratios are wanted. Milling a head also changes cam timing effectively retarding both cams which can be compensated for with the adjustable cam gears that ferraris have but should be a consideration when done to an engine wihtout adjustable gears. Intake manifold alignment issues can also appear if too much is taken off the heads to reach the target compression ratio and like stated earlier, cant be undone.

$54,000 for a turbo or blower install is a slap in the face and robbery. I dont care what parts are used, the customer is paying the ferrari price and is a fool. Buying a generic turbo from turbonetics for example and having the plumbing fabricated by any performance shop, injector upgrades, possible line and pump upgrades followed by programming couldnt add up to half that if you tried and the end result would be awesome power. You couldnt get the same output from a naturally aspirated engine for the money spent on forced induction.

 

Rick & P,

Thanks very much for your answers.
I still think it is a tough choice but you make some great points. I wonder if anyone has modified the heads before and knows how much you can safely get away with?


Lou

p.s., My personal opinion on turbos is that going with a tried and tested 'kit' is the only safe approach, and if nobody is willing to offer it at a reasonable price then you should just stay away. I've gone through the pain and agony of a custom turbo job on an Integra before - very bad experience as the shop proved they had oversold their capabilities multiple times over. They blew up the engine 4 times without ever being able to deliver the finished product. But that's another story and I don't want to hijack this thread. So far, I've not found a shop for the 360 that I would trust for a turbo installation *and* who has a proven reasonably-priced solution.

 

11:1 is already pushing it for a street engine.

You'll get minor and expensive gains on an engine that tends towards damaging pre-ingnition.

The Fcar engineers could have (more or less) chosen any ratio they wanted.... at essentially no additional cost. For all around performance on a very high performance street car - they chose 11:1 for a host of very good reasons.

Think twice about second guessing those boys.... They are at the 'top of the heap' for a reason.

As gas prices go up.... it is likely that octane numbers will fall. Remember when we could get Sunoco 103 for pennies?

Rgds,
Vince

 

I think a good part of the reason that turbo kits are so expensive on Ferraris is the cost of engine damage. Blow one up and the shop is out what, $40,000 or more? I'd build a kit myself, but not too many people can do that. I'd still be SOL with tuning the engine though. There don't seem to be a lot of options for generating more power from an F-car engine. Nitrous would be fun and cheap...

 

Sure, but pls keep in mind that our friends at the top of the heap were able to squeeze some more out of that engine when they crafted the Challenge Stradale. One of the changes was to increase compression from 11.0:1 to 11.2:1. I can't believe that was by accident.



Lou

 

You'll probably find cam timing is different as well, hence the bump in compression to work with the new profile. .2 wont give you squat anyway.

 

Compression ratios of 1.83:1? That would run like crap!
Raising compression can give great gains, with associated intake and exhaust modifications. The higher you rev, the more power you'll make if you can keep it breathing well.

 

Please check your notation (which I think is bringing some confusion). I believe what you are trying to say is "11.6:1" (i.e., 11.6 to 1) and not "11:6" (i.e, 11 to 6) -- correct?

 

Right. So you are saying it has 1.86:1 compression. What kind of motors are you working with?

 

I believe you are correct 11.0:1 is a lot higher than 11:6

 

I totally respect many of your well thought out technical posts but this is just plain wrong. You see we are not turboing the 1000th Z06 corvette but 1/1000 maybe 1/2000 F360's. That is a very special owner paying for R&D to get it right the first time so it does not blow up, is reliable, doesn't overheat the car, still runs with the A/c full blast, and idle in California freeway traffic. Even I who understand theory but have no practical experience in turboing a 360 can buy the ebay turbos for a grand each or even the chinese ones for 200ea. and make big HP on the dyno for how long who knows. Novitec has liability and must produce for the customer on a time table and get it right. 54K is not as outrageous as you think. I think all of us DIY'ER's need to think about that and should not be bashing mechanics and shops, and vendors on Fchat. Sure I can make a $50 clutch for my ferrari but it has no warrantee and is not FNA approved dispite my ability to race it for years without distruction. You want support you gotta pay for the $3000 clutch from the pros.

 

Easy solution: Stradale pistons, exhaust, chip, etc., and you've gained 25 - 30HP, and you've used standard Ferrari pieces. Maybe expensive, but you know they work.

Art