This may be a stupid question but what does the manual suggest for the car? A bit about oil... The crank, cams, piston bushings never touch the adjoining bearing surface. the viscosity of the oil is selected so that it provides a bed for the metal part to float above the bearing. If you go to a thin oil in a car that was designed for a thick oil, there is too much of a gap between parts and the oil escapes without providing a proper "bed" to float the part. My old 330 and my 308 say use a thick oil like 10w40 or 20w50. If I put 0w40 in one of those motors, I would be making contact between parts and the motor would likely be dead in 5000miles... when you blow a motor under warranty, the first thing that is checked is the oil viscosity. Using the wrong oil is the quickest way to void a warranty.
Not true. In the first place, 0-40 is thinner than 10-40 only at cold temps. At operating temps, mobil 1 0-40 retains viscosity better than other 40 weights and some 50 weights according to tests I read. All oils, including 0-20, 0-30, etc. are still thicker than optimum at startup (see A.Haas oil briefs here). There have also been advances in oils that allows the newer lower viscosities. In fact, Ferrari originally used 20-50 in 328's but at some point in the production run changed to 10-40 without any changes in the motors. If anything, using that old 20-50 mud in your motor for everyday use will likely shorten it's life due to poor flow at startups, not extend it. If the 0 weights allowed contact between parts, they would be useless in any motor. I (and others) have been using 0-40 in our 328's for years. There is no change in oil pressures. By the account given, this motor failed at operating temperature when the viscosity of the mobil 1 would have been as thick or thicker than any 10-40 oil. Dave Dave Dave
The gaps and clearances in a motor are established on using a specific oil viscosity, not the other way around. Also, when the motor is cold it is at its most vulnerable time and needs the suggested oil weight. I only run 20-50 on my 308 and 330 motors and have never had even the slightest indication of a problem. The new zero weight oils should only be used on cars that call for it. When I am working on a new machine or motor design, proper oil weight is my #1 concern in the design process.
First off if the oil caused this problem it wouldn't just be on two rods and two cylinders, it would have caused damage to all in some form or the other which tells me it's not the oil.. How can bad oil ruin two rods and rod bearings and not other components in the engine. Using 0W-40 has nothing to do with this problem and if McLaren can run straight 5W Mobil 1 synthetic oil in their formula 1 car, I doubt you will have a problem in any car that turns less than half the RPM and has less than half the horsepower.. Startup time on an Engine is the time it get's most of it's wear, that's why Bruce-McBeth tug boat engines are never turned off and why they change the oil while it's running... Secondly, you have all missed the post in this thread by the leading expert in oil: Ali E. Haas.. Dr Haas posted in this section and if you do a search on him and motor oil you will find that he knows more about motor oil than everyone else on this board combined... Read his post again.. BTW, Dr. Haas, glad to see your still trolling here! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This looks like full thickness bearing loss and is typical of cavitation. If it is cavitation, this type of damage can be caused by starting up the engine and immediately revving it up to high RPM. This can occur at room temperature but is worse as the temperature drops. Also, oil starvation can occur by starting it up and instantly revving it, worsened by long periods of non use before stepping on the gas so fast. All this assumes there was no particles in there blocking circulation or small enough to get into the bearing then scrape it. What do all the other bearings look like? One has to consider a manufacturing defect as well. aehaas __________________ My mom always said to look for the good in things. If you make this your practice you will only experience good things. Your life will always be filled with happiness. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.supramania.com/aehaas/ About the author: Dr. Haas is a physician and surgeon. He graduated from the University of Florida with a degree in biochemistry with honors. He studied motor oils since high school where he did independent studies on this topic. He studied the properties of viscosity. When he was a general surgery resident in Chapel Hill he studied the flow mechanics of human blood. Today he continues his research by discussion of oil products with chemists in the field and chemists from the oil manufacturers. He has personal racing experience in Formula Super Vee. He is his own Lamborghini and Ferrari as well as Mercedes mechanic. Also Windsock, who is very knowledgeable posted this: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- When you access the clutch on a 360 you open up the main feed line (casting) between the oil sump in the gearbox and the engine block. There is also a large p/u sreen in the gearbox side. It is likely something got into that feed line and caused the concern. I have also seen the o-ring between the gearbox and block leak while the engine in running and the suction on the o-ring as it is on the pick up side of the pump causes air ingestion into the oil. The oil ingestion causes the bearings at the farthest point from the pump to contact the crank, air in the oil causes the fluid cushion to break down much like air in a brake line. Bearings contact the crank and fail. We have seen this before. Just a thought. Good luck. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Which directly fits what Dr. Haas said... So here is what happened. CONCLUSION: The clutch was replaced, the o-ring between the block and gearbox was damaged during the process and that caused air to enter the oil distribution system/gallery, which caused "cavitation", which caused the bearings at the farthest point from the point to fail and that's why no other bearings were affected. You might also notice that the furtherest bearing from the pump is more damaged than the next one down the line... Proof of this whole hypothesis would be examining the o-ring which should show damage.. So IMHO the moral of the story is that replacing the clutch caused the problem and it had nothing to do with the oil itself. This is also why the engine didn't fail before, didn't show signs of previous damage, as the O-Ring had not been damaged previously.
The jury's still waiting to see the 27-8x10 color glossy pictures with the circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one explainin' what each one was.......................................
IF, this o-ring had not been installed correctly, would there not have been oil leaking (profusely) to the outside world....on the diffuser panel / ground? I don't think Bill mentioned oil leaking anywhere.
This o-ring is allegedly on the suction side of the oil pump, so it is possible that it wouldn't leak or would only leak minimally, and even then only when the engine was off.
Hi Brian, Nonetheless, it would still leak. And even if it's on the suction side of the pump......it would only "not leak" if it actually creates enough suction to go into a "vacuum state" and remain in a vacuum state 24/7 on or off ...correct? Thus, it would leak. My 2 cents anyways.
so it would leak air internally but not oil externally... thats why pcv was invented to get rid of that vacuum in the crankcase.... once the engine quits running there is no more vacuum in the crankcase
The oring was one of the first thing that inspected when I took it out . It looks as good as it did when i installed it . The one that I reaplaced was flattened out over time and pressure , this one was still nice and round and smooth . I will post a picture when i get a chance . Next idea please . Over the last few days I have had a couple of conversations with some well know ferrari mechanics who have all seen this problem with this oil . So its not just my car , I was just the only one willing to talk about it so far . I like the fact that everyone likes to point to me not doing the clutch job right . If you have ever done a clutch on a 360 you would find that its quit e straight forward and very simple .
Bill, Mobil 1 guarantees their oil won't harm your car... If you can prove it's the oil, they will buy you an engine.... Not only that they will do the analysis for free. If their oil was harming Ferrari engines all over the place, as some of your mechanics are stating, I am sure that would want that fixed. Crazy thing is that Mobil 1 has higher ratings than most of the other synthetics on the market. If you read Dr. Haas and his analysis he proves that. http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Oils/Mobil_1_Warranty.aspx Mobil 1 Mobil 1 Motor Oil Limited Warranty This is a limited warranty covering the Mobil 1 motor lubricant you purchased. ExxonMobil warrants its lubricants to be free from defects and will replace any Mobil lubricant that is defective. For all vehicles follow the recommended oil change interval in your owner's manual. ExxonMobil warrants that the Mobil 1 lubricant you purchased will protect your vehicle’s critical engine parts from oil related failure. If not, provided the engine was serviceable at the time the oil was installed, Exxon Mobil will have your vehicle repaired and replace the oil at no cost to you. ExxonMobil Lubricants & Petroleum Specialties Company, a division of Exxon Mobil Corporation ("ExxonMobil") provides this limited warranty to the purchasers who use Mobil brand lubricants in their vehicle. This limited warranty covers the Mobil 1 lubricant and critical engine parts lubricated by the lubricant. If there is equipment failure related to the Mobil brand lubricant you purchased, ExxonMobil will repair any equipment damage directly caused by a defect or malfunction of a Mobil lubricant, provided that the lubricant was selected and maintained in accordance with specifications of the original equipment manufacturer or the written instructions (which includes product packaging) of ExxonMobil. To file a claim under this Limited Warranty, you must: Upon discovery of the damage (but not later than six (6) months from the date the damage occurred) call 1-800-AskMobil. Allow an ExxonMobil representative to examine the equipment and maintenance records, if available, and provide proof of purchase to determine the extent of the damage and to confirm that a Mobil lubricant was the cause. Allow an ExxonMobil representative to obtain an oil sample from the engine for oil analysis at no cost to you to assist in determining the cause of the equipment failure. This Limited Warranty excludes: Mobil lubricants used in mechanically deficient equipment as a result of abnormal operation; negligence; abuse; damage from casualty, shipment or accident; or, equipment modification done without written authorization from the OEM. Situations where the OEM required lubricant standards do not match those stated by Mobil without written approval from ExxonMobil. Mobil lubricants that have been used in conjunction with any other product or additive that has not been authorized for use by ExxonMobil. Failure of equipment due to a pre-existing condition that is unrelated to the use of Mobil lubricants. Repair or replacement of equipment due to normal wears. The remedy provided here will be your only recovery against ExxonMobil. You will not be able to recover incidental or consequential damages. Some states do not allow the exclusion of or limitation of incidental or consequential damages, so the above limitation or exclusion may not apply to you. This warranty gives you specific legal rights, and you may also have other rights, which vary from state to state. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Also, call this guy, one of the best Ferrari guys on the planet, known to most Ferrari people: http://www.****************.com/index.html Dave's opinion would be interesting.... Please contact Mobil 1 and let us know what they say....
itself is if in manufacturing they created a bad case of oil which Bill happened to get. Mobil 1 will pay for his car to be repaired and all he has to do is send in a sample of the oil and tell them what happened. As for the comment regarding 5W versus 0W I think you need to read oil 101 by Dr. Haas... The only difference is the pour weight when the oil is cold, not the lubrication. I don't think Mobil 1 cares what the recommendation was... Read their own warranty: "This is a limited warranty covering the Mobil 1 motor lubricant you purchased. ExxonMobil warrants its lubricants to be free from defects and will replace any Mobil lubricant that is defective. For all vehicles follow the recommended oil change interval in your owner's manual. ExxonMobil warrants that the Mobil 1 lubricant you purchased will protect your vehicle’s critical engine parts from oil related failure. If not, provided the engine was serviceable at the time the oil was installed, Exxon Mobil will have your vehicle repaired and replace the oil at no cost to you." Mobil 1 is rated as high or higher than royal purple. Heck if it were me, I would bottle up some of that oil and send it in.. Beats the heck out of paying for a Ferrari engine rebuild. I mean what is 10 bucks for Fedex when compared to 20k for a full rebuild? BTW, I run this oil in my cars, all of them, and in my motorcycles.
I got in contact with Mobil 1 about their guarantee.. Matt Jacob is more than happy to discuss your oil problem if you would like to call him.. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mobil 1's high performance is based on years of technology development, working with car manufactures and extensive testing. We have full confidence in Mobil 1 and its superior performance. Please give us a call so we can discuss this. -- Thank you for choosing ExxonMobil products. Contact ExxonMobil at 1-800-ASK-MOBIL -Matt Jacob ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Was the ACTUAL cause or causes of the engine failure ever posted? It was a great thread and I, for one, would certainly like to know more.
Lou, I think you might be right.. Bill I would contact Rifledriver on this board, I think he is looking for people that have had the pre cats fail and get sucked back in to the cylinder. (360 has lots of valve overlap) I think he is working on a class-action suit and he has won before. That would explain a lot in this case.
I do not think this is related. But for the sake of accuracy since there are NDA's involved, I know of many failures of 360 manifolds. I know precat failures have happened, I know engine damage has happened. I would like to know of any manifold failures besides simple cracks. I am not working on a suit, just fact finding and data collecting.
Just throwing this out there... Recently I have been notified that current Mobil 1 is not recommended for all vehicles any longer. Reportedly the new formula does not have all of the needed additives that say an earlier Ferrari/Porsche engine may require without adding a supplemental ingredient (such as Royal Purple would have in their formulation). This has become necessary as today's current cars (like a new Porsche that is factory filled with Mobil 1) have new requirements and possibly environmental restraints that make the newest Mobil 1 formulation a requirement. Therefore other oils are now being recommended for older vehicles - such as so many of us own. I understand that the "extended performance / high mileage" Mobil 1 may have the added lubrication properties that older vehicles would require.
sorry to hear, any update? I am new to ferrari but I've worked on performance engines it dosen't look like oil problem, me and some friends we switched to red line after extended performance mobil one was introduced, but the damages were more cam related, If ur rebuilding if its me I would make sure the fuel system is working properly fllow test & balancing injectors, looking @ the head and piston looks like that cylinder has been running lean pinging may have put load on that bearing good luck tony
Help us out with some links or further reading please. I have a brand new Honda, and they use Honda (nee Mobil) motor oil that is the synthetic 'Blend', which I believe is a 50/50 synthetic/organic blend. I have been trying to find out how well Castrol Syntec stands up, but so far, I can't find any decent objective write-ups on it.
http://www.356registry.org/tech/modern_oil_in_the_356.html Here above is some lite reading for example.
