The Measure of Schumacher....

Unfortunately, no one knows what Senna would have done if that crash hadn't happened. Maybe he'd have crushed all records, maybe he'd have completely lost his performance with some new minor change of the rules, maybe he'd have retired, maybe, maybe, maybe... it is obvious that you're a huge Senna fan, but every "if" is just blind guessing. Schumacher's achievements are facts.

 

+1

F1 floundered for all those years without Senna or another top driver to give Schumacher's long list of wins any real meaning.

Only Ferrari fans had fun. (nothing wrong with that, but I like it better now with 3 or 4 men in the hunt)

Kind-of like Bill Gates money, what do you do new with 100 billion dollars? that you couldn't do with 50 billion? Seemed like over-kill to me....but some get lucky- Right place, right time.

 

i recall reading in a book i have, that Senna begun struggling when refuelling was introduced back in 1994. or was it 1993.

it seems Senna was struggling physically with the car, as Senna wasn't a strong person. he was fit yes, no question, but with the lighter cars, he was struggling. we would never know if he would have struggled with grooved tyres, etc etc.

having said that, would Senna last that long? i think if he was still around, he would have probably retire between 1996-1997.

 

After seeing the footage on Senna's DVD of him training, i can't agree with him not being a strong person!

 

Sure...and maybe Schumacher would have struggled with the loss of traction control this season?!?

Brian, you don't believe that for a second.

 

This is one of the stupidest things I have ever read on this web site period. If you followed F1 seriously, you know that Senna was most likely the greatest raw talent driver to come around since Fangio. Then you would also know that not only does Michael Schumacher have a similar level of god given talent, but then ad a technical talent for developing race cars with a team behind him, that no other driver in history has had. This is why Michael was the perfect storm. Senna was ending his career when Michael took to the sport in a serious team. He often spoke of his retirement. Senna may have been competitive for several more seasons, but to say Michael would still be chasing all of Senna's records is absoulute idiocracy, and I am a huge Senna fan. Senna like most greats before him, bounced from team to team, depending on who had the superior equipment, and therefor the most sponsors, and so the most money to pay a driver. Michael stayed on with a team that he and a unique group of engineers developed from the ground up. Ferrari's achievements with MS at the wheel of their cars, would never have been realized with any other driver. This is why you see Michael so involved with todays F1 team and with their street car development, the man is just pure genius.

 

A majority of active and retired F1 drivers would disagree with you. From Stirling Moss to Nigel Mansell to Mark Webber, they'd all disagree.

 

Now hold on, don't exaggerate it. You make it sound like he took a Tyrrell and started winning with it in only a few seasons. The fact is, Ferrari was already winning races and often getting on the podium with Berger and Alesi. Even before that, Prost and Mansell were winning races, and Prost challenging for the title. That sounds like someone going to BMW today, and in a few seasons winning more races and challenging for the title. Not that big of an advancement and some make it sound.

 

Actually, this was brought up in another thread, but Michael was not as technically strong as some of the other test drivers. Eddie Irvin was apparently better at technical knowledge. Schumacher was great at motivating the team to take them forward. Not saying he was/is not strong technically, but Ferrari had other test drivers that were stronger technically than he was.

 

At the time Schumacher went to Ferrari, they were not winning many races. Berger, Prost, etc.. and any major wins they had were some seasons before. In the 2 seasons before MS at Ferrari, it was pretty dismal for Maranello. There are other drivers admittedly thet were as technical as Schumacher, however it was his combination of speed, technical, and the afore mentioned team building skills, loyalty, and strategy that made him the perfect storm, and thus the best driver in modern history. If you want to credit Senna where it is due, it is in his ability to win before all else. To wring the maximum out of any vehicle he drove by force. He is the greatest qualifier ever, hands down. If you watch his qualifying laps, in car, at Monaco it is actually frightening, this is where Senna was the master. He was a true giant of the sport and will always be missed, feared, and respected.

 

No, sir. Your post is...by far.

I guess you are completely unfamiliar with Jimmy Clark and his relationship with Colin Chapman and the Lotus team...

And you are completely unfamiliar with the contributions of Irvine and Barrichello to the Ferrari's development.

?!?

Is that why he moved to Williams?!?

To slide into retirement?!?

Silly me, I thought he was planning on winning a few WDCs. How little did I know...

What was that you were saying about the stupidest post you ever read?

Tell me, how many GPs and WDCs did Williams win in the years following Senna's death. Do you somohow think that Senna would have underperformed the likes of Hill and JV in that car? Do you somehow think that he would not have achieved more in that same car that those drivers achieved?

Had Senna lived, how many GPs would he have won? How many WDCs? How many of those would have come at Schumacher's expense?

Your statement is completely and utterly ridiculous.

Back then, that was how you won titles. No team dominated the sport for more than a couple of seasons at a maximum. ALL of the top drivers back then moved from team to team.

Unlike Schumacher, Senna drove with World Champions as teammates. He never had the luxury of having a team built completely and solely around his ambitions. He never ducked competition, he sought it out. He drove alongside the greatest drivers in the world in equal machinery and beat them. He didn't need team orders to win.

That is something Schumacher NEVER did.

 

I guess you need a history lesson.

Ferrari won GPs in both those years. In each season only 3 teams in all of F1 won GPs. In each of those two years, Ferrari finished 3rd in the WCC.

Most Formula 1 teams would have killed to have seasons as "dismal" as Ferrari had in 1994-95

From Wikipedia:
With the Ferrari 412T, Gerhard Berger and Jean Alesi proved the car's competitiveness throughout the two seasons, with a brace of podium places and four pole positions. Bad luck limited the number of wins to one each for both Berger (1994 German Grand Prix) and Alesi (1995 Canadian Grand Prix), particularly Alesi who was in a position to win at Monza and the Nürburgring in 1995, but the car was a solid and competitive proposition.

 

Alesi's win in Canada came as a result of MS's DNF late in the race. Alesi deserved a better fate as an F1 driver.

This thread is silly as it is the umpteenth MS v. AS thread;we know what we got with MS but we'll never know what AS would have finished with unfortunately. At least they both started on lesser teams and worked their way through the ranks unlike some other drivers....

 

What is it his birthday or something? He's retired, get over it and move on. I don't miss him. F1 is far more exciting now than it was a few years back.

 

So what's that meant to mean...?

 

Seriously, there have been 5 different race winners so far this year, and several others putting lesser cars on the podium. This year is far more exciting for me than previous ones, and I'm not going to participate any further in this "Senna vs Schumacher" stuff.

 

Unlike Schumacher, Senna drove with World Champions as teammates. He never had the luxury of having a team built completely and solely around his ambitions. He never ducked competition, he sought it out. He drove alongside the greatest drivers in the world in equal machinery and beat them. He didn't need team orders to win.

That is something Schumacher NEVER did.[/QUOTE]

Spoken like a true sore loser. I love people that use "what ifs" and "could haves".....Part of being a great driver is longevity, racing is a blood sport where you can die. It is equal parts luck and skill. Schumacher was skilled and lucky. Senna was skilled and not so lucky, that is why one has "SEVEN" world championships and the other three. I'm sure it was team orders and incompitent teamates, that caused Schumacher to dominate every form of motorsport he ever drove in. Was there team orders when he won his carting championships, or when he dominated the Mercedes Junior Program at 18 years of age....Pathetic excuses may fool some fans on here but not me. Senna never ducked competition ??? When Prost beat him into turn one in Japan to win the championship he drove him into the gravel trap...Is that seeking out competition and winning the skilled way?? What ifs and could haves are based on conjecture, not fact...the FACTS are that Schumacher owns every major record in F1 and Senna does not. Stick to the facts.

 

If I am not mistaken, this is not a Schumacher vs. X driver thread nor is it a State of F1 after Schumacher's retirement thread. We all have an opinion about Schumacher, but one thing that no one can or should do is to deny his personal achievements and what he had done for F1. You don't have to be a fan, you don't even have to like him, but if you are a true fan of racing, more specifically of Formula One Racing, you can not possibly disrespect his achievements in F1. Let's try to remember, F1 was severely lacking in personality following Senna's untimely death. Heck, they even tried to bring Mansell back to see if he can infuse a little excitment into F1. In a way, Schumacher saved F1 and the sport as much as any driver can possibly do. Even before Senna's death, Schumacher was considered to be the next great one by many, including Senna himself. He became even more of a focal point after Senna's death, even know that he was still relatively a new comer in the sport. His domination of the sport promoted and lead to rule changes after rule changes in order to give his competitors a fighting chance.

F1 has changed greatly since the 70's and the 80's, his and Ferrari's philospohy of one lead driver in the team has been the one that works in this era, and until it is proven otherwise, I have no problem of them or any other team continuing this practice. The one lead driver philosophy didn't start with Schumacher, it started much earlier than that. It was however, amplified due to his completely dominating performance in F1 and within the team. The team order was in place at Ferrari before 1996, but it wasn't a problem with anyone until Schumacher and Ferrari started to win on a consistant regularity. People who disrespects Schumacher's F1 career are doing it out of their own pettiness, it may be because they feel their favor driver's legacy is being threaten or their records being surpassed, one way or another, they should try and think what their favor driver would do in this case. Had Fangio, Clark or Senna be alive today, I am sure that none of them will disrespect Schumacher like some of the members here. They may not like the fact that their records being broken, but they will accept it like a true sportsman, like the true legends of this wonderful sport that we all love and appreciate.

I for one will be looking forward to the day when someone eclipses Schumacher's records, when that day comes, I will respect him/her and appreciate my good fortune of being able to be here and to witness greatness in F1 racing once again. I already missed out on Fangio and Clark, but I am proud to say that I was here to see Senna and Schumacher, regardless if I am or am not a fan of the above mentioned drivers.

 

Sorry he did not dominate the Mercedes Junior team. As a matter or fact most people concidered Wendlinger the better driver of the Junior team.

 

Not so sure.

Think of this: Alonso could have been closing in on his Fourth WDC this year if McLaren rightly had made him number 1 last year. He is young and naturally they would have kept him and with the McLaren being the best car currently, only LH could have stopped him.

MS was good, but his best years (and also his best years FOR F1) were the mid-90's. I rate him behind Prost myself ... Prost was prepared to race an equal, MS was not.
Pete

 

it's just a guess, Ted. remember the time Senna suffered something when his body was half paralysed at the British GP back in the 80s? can't recall if it was the British GP. i'll dig up exactly what the book quoted soon

 

MS would NOT have struggled without TC, he drove without TC many times. Anybody that is good in the rain can handle looking after their own TC ...

Pete

 

I think you are mistaken big time there. Most would agree he was the best.

 

Thats if you call winning 2 races in the previous 6 years good. Ferrari may as well have been Tyrell. Mike won 8 racesin the next 2 seasons while the williams was by far the class of the field and the rest is history. If you dont think that he was the main reason in Ferrari being turned around the way it was, then Im sorry but you were not watching the same racing series that Mike was in.

 

More ifs and could haves. "IF" the tire rule change had not come into being in 2005 the Mike would have retired with 9 WDC and Alonso would still be looking for one.