When does Ferrari realize it is not just 0-60?

I personally have to agree with you. I dont know about the 0-60 times or that stuff, but where is the georgious cars of the past? its one thing to have a super powerfull car, but Ferrari ( as long as I've been around ) was about how pretty and exotic the cars are and they were also fast, and handled pretty well too... but most of all they just looked fantastic. Even the racing cars were pretty... 250 GTO, 330 P3/P4, 275 LM, etc... those cars are still revered today because of their beauty, style and sheer exoticness. the fact that some of them were world champion winning cars is like a bonus.... I dont think you can say that about a 430 Challenge car or a 430 race car of today.

They are nice, dont get me wrong, but really Porsche, Pagani, Lambo, etc... all make cars that go just as fast...., but the current models just dont look the part any more. The 355 was IMHO the last pretty car made by Ferrari. I hope they will get back to making pretty cars as well as performance.

Montezemolo is responsible for making the cars more "useable" but I think they have gone too far to that side. I'm sure some guys use their Ferrari every day, but most of the folks I know save them for weekends, or special times, I dont think Ferrari's were ever really meant for every day usage, unless you are super wealthy and at that point how often do you really drive your self anyway?

I agree that the cars should be made useable, and reliable, but why cant they be made prettier as well? I would love for Ferrari to make a new car that I just lust after... but sadly has not happend since the 355. Glickhaus P4/P5 is about the only new Ferrari that I can say I've really been lusting after... and its not even being made by Ferrari.... some how that is not right!

 

both great posts...i agree.

 

Here are my thoughts on this, and I have been thinking about this lately. It seems up until around the late 90's, maybe even when the C5 Corvette came out, Ferrari had the market cornered on performance. Take the 308 up to 355 Ferraris. These cars were beautiful, EXOTIC, and FAST for their times. Come on, there wasnt much out in the 1970s thru 1990's that would beat a Ferrari (production cars ie Corvettes, Mustangs, etc) But these days, technology has become cheaper, therefore, the Mustangs and Vettes can now produce a lot of power for the same costs as back in the day. Ferrari back 355's and before were all exterior styling and performance. interior wasnt even an issue. NOW, I am seeing Fcars becoming very posh in the interior, bu the exterior isnt all as exotic as in the past. Lamborghini is keeping pace with the exotic look however. I would like to see Ferrari get a little more exotic (not Lamborghini level, but just a little) on the exterior styling and keep pace with the new interior luxury. I would also like to see them keep their production numbers at current levels and simply increase the price of newer models

thoughts? anyone going to call me out on any of this? hahahaha

 

Well, great posts - can't argue with the sentiment. And I like the Aston V8 more than anything else produced in 2008.

It's not just a Ferrari "problem". The Gallardo and Murcielago are sterile tools for going fast as well, whereas the Miura, original Countach and Diablo look and smell like the real deal. However I don't think you can "design-in" more mystique, and while the F430 may not be as evocative as a 246 GTS it technically is descended (bloodline) from the 308, which is a very soulful (and now relatively slow) Ferrari.

But a lot of this "style" and "mystique" is something we've attached to the cars over time, partially because the cars come to us through the haze of nostalgia. The engineering is better now. Period. If you time-traveled back to 1970, would you hear more people talking about the Daytona's mystique, or the huge expensive oil leak it just laid on your garage floor and the four times it overheated on the expressway? Or 1980 when the only Ferrari sold in the States took some warming up before second gear was usable? Point is, Ferrari was trying for 0-60 even back then -- its cars always had a lot of horsepower for the era. They just happened to do a lot of stuff then that we now find charming. Carbs, for example, are bad engineering but full of character. If direct injection had been around in 1965, performance marques would have used it. Ditto for modern lighting, which has given us unfortunate front ends on the F430/599/612 -- Daytona pop-ups or chrome-ringed 275 GTB lamps have more mystique. But they were just the technology of the time, not part of a concerted effort to inject character into the cars.

Personally though, and to get back to your point, I find everything after the F40 to be less interesting, and in the Porsche world the 1973/4 period was pretty much the end of the cars that really do anything for me. The "perceived performance" factor of some of those cars -- i.e., grin-inducing driver experience -- hasn't been replicated since (although credit Lotus for coming damned close recently).

 

I'd argue on one point. First, Lamborghini is in a dull rut when it comes to styling. I want to like the Gallardo, but really it is a predictable design, and the Murci is like a Diablo without the sexy curves -- a dull design done by a Belgian, IIRC.

The Miura, if you've spent some time fondling one in person, is something you could stare at for half a day and keep finding cool stuff. It's an evocative car -- kind of a shrine to big gasoline engines and a middle finger extended by the design team to the engineering department.

Yes, they're very fast, but they look like designs I could have come up with. Looking at Pininfarina's best, I can't even fathom all the curves and shapes on the 246, 250 GT SWB, 308, Lusso...

 

I always like 0-100 and 0-186 times. 599 does 0-100 in 6.8-7.0s, and AM&S got a 0-186 in 29.8 sec, beaten only by Veyron. Trucks like the Bentley Speed, Cayenne TS, and S65 can do nice 0-60's.

 

great outlook - this easily sums it up. . .

just to add some dialog:
as its preference, I would say everything after the 512M (and F50) would be less interesting.

to the OP:

Things must change with the times... Sure, Ferrari was never meant to "satisphy" the overall majority, just the overall minority who can afford them - but, Ferrari has become more and more accessible as time has progressed. More and more are improving their networth (mainly through investment) so more people are theoretically willing to pay more for a vehicle, let alone a Ferrari. These mags just give publicity, which is a good thing to be honest. Ferrari want to keep their title as a "benchmark" sports car, atleast to the average readers (mainstream) of those American magazines you mentioned. For Ferrari, its hardly ever been about the "enthusiast buyer", but more the "loyal buyer", and whether they are the same thing, could be a different discussion. Point is, Ferrari has always been able to produce what they please really, and its no surprize that they have made such drastic changes to their designs.

What Montezemolo figures is: if they can sell on target back in the 70s - early 90s, without much emphasis on publicity, imagine what they can do with the publicity and with the exposure to the mainstream. That said, they produced the California as a v8... (which it should have been a 12.) That said, all the new cars look like they were finalized at Tommy Kaira's design studio. . . Hah.. That said, now we cant even get 6mt standard anymore, can we.... Things will get "worse" for us as natural enthusiasts, and better for the mainstream market.

They'll still build limited amounts of vehicles, but i bet those numbers are much greater than they were in the past.

 

1. 2007 Porsche pFF 911 0-186mph under 20 seconds
2. Porsche 962 0-186 also in this time

http://www.seriouswheels.com/cars/top-2007-9ff-Porsche-911-997-Turbo-Cabriolet-World-Record.htm

This Swiss auto ugly as hell but fast at 1900lbs under 17 seconds at 186mph
3. http://sportscarsfans.blogspot.com/2008/05/weber-sportscar-worlds-fastest-street.html

Probably more cars I missed.

 

Unmodified production cars. Top Fuel dragsters kick everyone's butt, so that wasn't point.

 

962 is 100% street legal running on low boast 0-60 2.6 top 253mph quarter 10.5 unmodified times in a flat 6 twin turbo.
962 lemans race car high boast 0-60 2.3 top 265mph quarter 9.2. Porsche GT1 street car is just a hair slower and it is factory production car though very limited. You can argue that Ruf who has full independent licensed can also be in this league.

Drag racers(funnycars), are hybrid-automobiles not conventional.

 

Manufacturers have been playing the 0-60 game forever. Look at how many cars don't shift out of second gear until 63 mph. That's done so that they can do the 0-100 kph run without a shift that would cost them a second in that run up. I'ts all for the magazine test comparisons so that they can look good.

I also agree that today's current styling leaves a lot to be desired. It costs the same to make an unattractive car as it does to make one that is beautiful...

Problem is, now there is a lot more aerodynamics involved than there was way back when. Lots of things they did way back when for what they thought were aero reasons weren't very correct. Now we get better aerodynamics, lower drag and more downforce, and the cars tend to look all the same. Before the rocker panels tucked in and made the car a lot lighter. Now we have fat sides and no underside curvature. Better for aero, but not particularly attractive since it makes the car look heavy and fat in the midsection. Pedestrian impact and bumper standards are another issue entirely. Why should my car that I don't drive much be compromised on the chance that I "may someday" hit a pedestrian or have a "parking lot encounter" with an idiot who backs up without looking. I should have the right to take that risk if I want to.

Still I think that if there was a better job of styling that would go a long way to improving the desireablity of the cars.

How many cars do you look at today and say "that is drop dead gorgeous, I wan't one", not many in my book...

I think that is part of why the old cars are so valuable, they bring out that basic desire that today's cars just don't

 

The future of automobiles is lightweight. For faster acceleration RWD cars had manipulated gearing at the expense of lower top speed. The next innovation was incorporating all-wheel drive such as Audi and 959 which lead into most cars the downside was more weight, which lead to suspension revisions. In the end the laws of physics dictate acceleration and handeling and its all about the power to weight ratio all while trying to put it to the ground. For the lazy drivers there will always be all wheel drive heavy cars and for racers rwd lightweight.

 

I share this rant and sentiment very much. Where one draws the line is a personal matter, but somewhere along the line (maybe since Ferrari became what I call Fiat-Ferrari), wind tunnel designed look alikes, somehow, "modern F cars" do not appeal to me as much as the "pre-modern models". Maybe the question is...are you "driving" (handling) your car or is your car driving you ? w/ smiles Jimmy

 

Another reason why I'm starting to be a bigger fan of the new Lotus and Ariel Atom. Giving the driver a special experience seems to be a bigger priority and I like that.

 

I am just waiting for the retro 308, you know its coming!

Dave

 

I always thought Ferrari main goal was to make each car faster around a track than the previous model. I think they have stayed true to this. Who really cares about 0-60 and who really starts at 0 and hammers their car in a straight line, maybe a teenager who had almost no driving skills. I consider myself a typical Ferrari person. I want a car that can turn, accelerate,stop and look better than any other exotic in real word spirited driving. Ferrari can get beat out by every other Mfg in 1 segment of my equation but not all together. In this respect, they have stayed true to their mission. With that said, I have not been excited about the styling since the 355. I dont like how big the cars have become.

 

But that's all that matters to the light to light pilots and onramp warriors of the world!

 

Slower 0-60 times would be marketing suicide for Ferrari. But...

I agree with the post above about lightweight being the future. Specifically, the 4,000 lb 599 should be viewed as the final bloated indulgence. Performance gains from now on should hinge on shedding pounds, not adding horses to keep up with all the luxury crap. Everybody loves the F40. And obviously a lot of people love the Dino 246/308. Ferrari can go a bit hardcore and keep its buyers happy.

Given less tonnage to move around, maybe they could get back to some of the classic racer style that survived up through the '80s. How about a P4 or Dino-inspired small sports car for the road?

 

I am not that interested in 0-60 times or even lap times. To me it is all about how much fun the car is to drive. I can say I was impressed when I drove a 360 for the first time, partly due to the nice torque, but mostly due to the awesome gearbox and great outward vision. When I drive the 348 I enjoy the sounds the most, the intake is fantastic! When I drive the Ginetta it is the most fun. You really feel like the car is wrapped around you and well connected. It is slow (relatively), but handles great and sounds awesome also. With the open top I don't think it can get much better for a crisp day of driving through the mountains. So for $20k I have a fantastic car that is relatively reliable. I considered adding a supercharger to be able to bench race with other newer and faster cars, but I am afraid I might lose some of what makes the car so enjoyable. Very predictable and controllable accelleration and handling.
A street motorcycle is far faster than just about anything produced, so if the goal is a great 0-60 time, get two wheels!

BT

 

On a straight line you are correct on a track 4 wheels =faster lap times and better handeling.

 

Yes, but you can get a much quicker track car than a modern Ferrari for a fraction of the cost. It seems the most likely use for the current crop of high hp cars is to do the rolling street races on the highway that populate many youtube videos. I am not much interested in doing that, so maybe that is why I am not willing to pay the premium for a newer Ferrari. The other reason may be that I do not have the income for it!

BT