What would you do if you were misled on a PPI?

One thing about the high prices we pay in aussie is they focus your attention!
I certainly would want to be present for at least some of the inspection even if that involves travel etc.

Your point re incentive for a misleading, or worse, PPI is germaine.
The seller's mechanic is aware the PPI will be seen by his client. There's sometimes motive to conceal previous sharp practice with prior work paid for in good faith by the seller.
At the least he's grading his own work and thus likely to mark generously.

It certainly seems the compression test is significant. A full engine rebuild could have our buyer resorting to law and that possibility argues for discretion with posting names for the time being.

 

I would not pay any mechanic if he did not put his findings in writing. In Australia we have a road worthy certificate and this is in writing and must be done before a car can be transferred. If there is a fraudulent certificate then the certifyer is liable. I know of no one who would be happy with a verbal PPI unless they were on prozac.

 

Sorry no disrespect meant to you hockeyfan I wasreplying to another post. In my mind the mechanic was negligent in not providing a written PPI to simply protect himself.

 

This is a pretty good post. If I were in your shoes I wouldn't pay the seller's mechanic a nickel. And if he doesn't refund your money, post him up here so we know he's suspect.

 

It is a shame that even the people we see as professionals for whom we pay for their time and expertise cannot be trusted to do what they are being PAID FOR. There were no favors here and a 10 hour inspection is a huge amount of time to evaluate a car. I think at the amount of stuff I can look at and evaluate on a 308 in 10 hours and it boggles the mind. For that amount of time you should rightfully expect a report so detailed that you would know if one seat had more stiches than the other. Right from the start I would have questionned the number of hours spent and been cautious from there. That said many people think that working on a Ferrari is like visiting the Pope so no number of hours is ever enough. With time you realize that they are cars and the people who work on them are human. As such it is important to be critical of what is being done to avoid being taken advantage of. From this I hope you will consider the following:

In the future:

1. Be more critical of what people are asking for the work they are performing.
2. If you ever get a PPI again ask for documentation including photos of problem areas. If the mechanic won't do this, find someone else. Remember he is being your eyes when you can't be there yourself so a 'minor scratch' to him may be a 'full body key job' to you.

What to do now:

1. See if there is a way of getting out of paying the PPI as it is clear you did not get a fraction of what you paid for.
2. Give up any idea of the mechanic offering you some kind of retribution unless it is a refund. I would not trust someone to work on my car who cannot even see things like broken CV boots.
3. Forget sueing him. Not worth the effort for what you are likely to get out of him. I'm sure you feel like it out of principle but there are better ways of getting back at him that cost much less heartache and hassle
4. Post his shop information. This is important because it avoids future people being taken advantage of and in the end will cost him much more than the money he 'stole' from you during the inadequate PPI.
5. Try to put it all behind you and enjoy your new purchase. Ferrari ownership really is quite a treat.

 

Well, if it's any consolation you have the finest minds in the Industry responding to your thread! LOL!

G'morning gents....


Two real issues as I see it, as mentioned you basically paid for an inefficient PPI, not all Techs are the same sadly and as his comment to you seemed to reflect, his heart wasn't in this one....so you would be due 'something' but that's a minimal labor charge..

Your major exposure is the repair costs of the real issues, and as many here are saying this isn't a Deal Breaking list, unless you want to return the car.

Going forward, older and wiser, it has been common to reach an agreement on the selling price prior to the PPI, then splitting the cost of the resolution of any deficiencies 50/50 between buyer and seller...if you can get this deal, it is a good agreement, but your defective PPI would have failed to support you anyway..

Headights are probably minor, relay or fusing.
Boots tear, that's a day in the life..
Mufflers are a wear item like tires also, I use ANSA and have the Factory sales phone if you need it...

How else can we help? These are old cars by now and deferred maintenance before selling them is the norm, not the exception, sadly.

 

Where can I find such a PPI list? It would be very helpful in my search for a 308. Thanks.

 

Yes! Yes!

I have a PPI starting on this Thursday on a car that at this point I will not be able to physically see until it arrives here. I am trying to write my own list of specific things to be looked at during the inspection. At this point I have very good feelings about the seller and his representations on the car.

Jeff

 

If you are really bringing it to someone who is qualified to do it he will know better than you what to look for. What you should discuss with him are your expectations from the car. In other words do you want a good driver, a show car, or something that is restorable. Considering what I have seen you should make sure he is going to give you a detailed written report and a CD of photos if you want.

If I am not describing your guy he is a bad choice.

 

Many of us have gone thru this. I once purchased a "slightly modified" Pantera out of Texas. Turned out to be an all out racecar that was un-drivable on the street.

"Buyer beware", "pig in a poke"... these old homilies have meaning. If you can afford to write off the purchase of the car, then trust the seller to represent it honestly. Using the sellers mechanic to do a proper PPI is like using your soon to be rich ex-wife's lawyer to represent you in the divorce.

I, for one, would hate to write off $35K on a car. So if I really want a car and it "sounds nice", I either hop on a plane and go check it out myself, or hire a true appraiser. Actually, I do both if I am not completely familiar with the model. Other than that, you're rolling the dice.

One more thing, unless you are a lawyer, forget about suing. You'll just be spending more money and aggravation and getting nothing in return.

I hope I have not come off sounding harsh and/or pompous. It appears that you purchased a solid car that needs some attention - they all do when first purchased. Good luck and enjoy.

 

Post up the name(s)! and help a brother out.

It'll make the a**holes squirm.

Like others have said, if the tech won't put it in writing use someone else who will.
I have had a number of PPI's done on cars and have always received a written report.

Also, always use an independent tech for the PPI.
It won't be hard to find one by just asking in a post here on Fchat.

Have fun w/your new Fcar.

Cheers

 

I would ask your mechanic if he is willing to sign a notarised statement of the conversation he had with the sellers mechanic. If you used your guy to speak to the sellers mechanic to determine the cars integrity, and if the answers were specific enough to show deception, you may want to speak to an attorney about writing a few letters to get thier attention. I would imagine this shady mechanic and/or seller would start squirming some if they thought they might have to defend themselves in court. If you push it hard enough they may just want to settle this with you if you can come to something equitable. Another reason to wait before spreading theyre names all over cyber space.[/QUOTE]


If you are serious about getting satisfaction/money back, then thats what I'd do. Most times if you win you can also get court & attorney costs back. But on the other hand you have learned a valuable lesson and are now the better/wiser for it. Ask youreslf, if the PPI revealed those problems would you have still bought the car? If yes, then you would have probably negotiated a couple of grand off the price. So at most you are out a little money. If you keep the car then you might have to suck up the extra costs as part of the learning experience. Get the work done right and drive/enjoy your car. When the next person asked about PPI's, ect. then you can reply with the wisdom of experience. After all, remember that experience is most often gained thru the expenditure of time and/or money, it always costs something.

 

When I bought my car I used Escrow.com. There is a specific set of steps both buyer and seller have to follow. Go to the website for specifics. Living in Orlando and the car in California, I had the car inspected by a third party non-associated shop in the sellers town. It got good marks IN WRITING with photos of all issues and printouts of leak downs etc., so I agreed to go forward with the purchase sight unseen.

HOWEVER, Escrow.com regs allowed me to review the car once it arrived at my door for any damage and/or anything else that didnt match the sellers' reflections of the condition of the car. I think it was 2 or three days time allowed. If it was bad I would still be out the PPI cost and the shipping cost to me. Seller would have to pay to ship back if it didnt reflect his statements. Anyways, the car was exactly how he said it was and I agreed to buy and the money was transferred to his bank via escrow. It was all done online. They did the title work and Florida title rules/laws are a pain. Shortly thereafter I was on the road.

And a few weeks later I woke up one morning and went into the garage and almost fell on my ass. The clutch master cylinder failed and I was christened by the puddle of fluid my Ferrari had pissed onto the floor......

-Nate

 

My Mom taught me about conciliation court and I learned young that you dont ever have to accept no for an answer when someone tries to screw you over. Lawyers generally wont touch stuff like this, your better of going it alone if at all possible. If you prepare properly and practice what your going to say, and if you are brief and to the point, honest, respectful, and respectfully dressed, your words will carry a lot of weight.

You may lose in court, but you can always appeal. You may win and never get a dime. Winning is easy, collecting is tough. And here again an attorney is almost useless, they just dont want to bother with trivialities like that. And honestly you can do it yourself. Many years ago I sued a guy over wages he owed me. It took me a year on an appeal to win a judgement, and it took almost another year to collect. But I hounded him so bad he was changing bank accounts like underwear to hide his money, and rapidly moving cars around so I couldnt snafu one. And although each time I sic'ed the Sherriff on him it cost me $50, it was added to the court costs. Really got his goat good when I got his race car and a car load of parts for the sum total of $1 at a sherriff sale, (nobody else showed up) and all it took off what he owed me was $1. If I never collected another dime the effort was worth it in making him run, and that day I felt like I finally won. It was shortly after that he called me and asked what I wanted from him and we worked out a settlement.

Most people go through life ripping people off and getting away with it because so many victims feel its not worth the hassle to pursue anything. And the rip offs of the world know it. Well, nothing would get my Mom more determined than someone asking her what she was going to about it. The conversation that mechanic had with you should have made you mad enough to unhinge the gates of hell. You know, if the car was sold across state lines and was a fraudulent transaction based on deception......

 

ok, i feel i have to add this. i have had cars come and go.

no offense to you, but on, say VERY expensive cars, ( ie, not a 308) i could see doing the Escrow method, and i know some aircraft, boats and so on are sold this way. however, the relatively "cheap" cars are not worth the hassle.

i , as a seller / member on F chat, have told people with this approach as a buyer to buy from someone else. this method of buying is a waste of the sellers time, in my opinion, and given the low price point, there will be other buyers.

having a older car inspected is a great practice, and i have never had issue with it, but people who have called me to buy a car from me, and want me to go through all these hoops, AND THEN THEY TRY TO HAGGLE THE PRICE DOWN, can just go buy their dream car from someone else. Ferrari made plenty of them.

in closing, a PPI is a great practice, and expected with these cars, an honest PPI by the shop should be standard practice, but bugging the hell out of the seller with wierd procedures and faxes all over the place is bad in the other direction.


just my opinion, and i have had some neat cars.

there must be "balance".

 

Hi Jeff, I am not sure where your new car is however perhaps you could ask a favour of one of the fchatters and he or she may be able to cast an eye over your new purchase for you while it is having the PPi. If you were in australia and not in my town and I could assist I would be only too happy to check it out for you.
I am thinking of buying an older f car and importing from england and would seek some friendly assistance from one of our fchat locals when the time comes. Is your car known to the club members?

 

The car has been owned by the same person since 1986 or 1987. He bought it from the original owner after about 18 months of his ownership. To me that starts to say something about the person actually being interested in the car for the long haul. The stated reason for selling now is that he and his wife's interests have changed to sail boats in the last 5 years and so the car has gotten progressively less and less use. I have had extensive conversations with the person (Frank) and have a very good "warm and fuzzy" about him representing the car accurately to the best of his knowledge. What I really expect is that any PPI issue will be a surprise to him and if something comes up we have agreed to stop the deal or evaluate the need to adjust the price of the deal.

As best I can tell Frank has not been interacting with any of the regular New Jersey area Ferrari crowd for years. Some years back he apparently was a member of the Ferrari Club of America because he took the car to the FCA national that was at Watkins Glen. Frank made a point of telling how Ed Guilberson had a conversation with him and made notes on the judging sheet on how good the condition of the car was even though Frank had not performed any special show preparations.

Our plan had been to go out to pick up the car after had an extensive major performed then take 3 or 4 nice days to drive it home. Various time and business issues have intervened so the current plan is to have it trucked here then have the major done by a local shop before using the car. That the major will be performed by someone that I can go visit during the work will be very reassuring.

During today I had passing thoughts of trying to fly out for the day of the PPI. Again though there are too many other pressing things going on the take that time.

I am completely happy that everything is going the way it is? Not really. Am I nervous? Not really. Will I have extensive conversations with the mechanic after the PPI is performed? Absolutely.

Jeff

 

1. Pictures don't mean crap and if you don't wanna be disappointed go see the car in person.

2. Don't trust the owners mechanic. The guy is not independent if he's having checks written to him from the current owner and will have more written to him when the current owner gets a new car from the money your paying him for his current car.

At this point just fix the cv boot etc and move on.

Sorry this happened to you.

 

+1 and yes...

I would rather PPI the seller than the car.

Look at the car carefully (REALLY LOOK!)

Use your gut.

Look at the seller.

That will tell you most of what you need to know.

If after all that, you get stuck with a problem, chances are
you would have been stuck with the same problem AFTER
the PPI.

Ciao... and good luck.

 

Finding many disagree with me I reluctantly add: I bought my car without PPI - 11 years ago I never heard of a PPI, just found the car in the classifieds. Buying a used Ferrari was like any other private sale used car - I was allowed to fire it up but not drive it. I haven't changed my opinion that much.

70+ years of dealing with humans have taught me that paying a couple hundred bucks for a few hours of time doesn't buy much in competence unless I really know the mechanic and even then I expect good and bad days. Sure, expect an advocate, expect a list of the car's deficiencies, but if some things are missed and you feel you didn't get what you thought you paid for, don't go legal and tear your life apart, call that couple hundred bucks a lesson learned, have your deserved rant and get over it.

As I write, there were 43 replies so obviously this issue concerning many owners. What could be a service to the F community would be a standardized check list of items to be covered in a PPI. Even the PPI mechanics would benefit from that list.

 

I have a file from "Furman O'Dell" which I believe was pointed out to me by someone on this site. It's a "Ferrari 80's Era PPI" list. I agree with others here that any reputable mech should have a list however this is a great start. PM me and I'll send you the file.

 

PM sent.

Jeff

 

Same here.

 

Seems like soooo many here are quick to join the "witch hunt" with threats of violence even.

Sad to see Fcar people act like this.

My questions are :

- How do you know "your" mechanic performed the second compression check correctly?

- How different were the numbers? Why haven't you posted the two sets of numbers?

- What would prompt you to redo the compression check? Was the car running poorly? Or are you just looking for ammunition for "compensation"?

 

Paid for 10 hours to do a PPI and no photos or write up?
I'd want to know what was going on for 10 hours.

Name the shop and PPI provider.

You thinking "The Butcher of Burbank"?