What would you do if you were misled on a PPI?

You thinking "The Butcher of Burbank"?


Well, if that's true, it would explain alot

ouch.

 

The Butcher of Burbank would explain allot, but not my first guess. Name the mechanic so other "ferrari brothers" dont get the same from this Hack! It is part of the Fchat community to report such inferior work on these great cars. From 308 to enzo's. You are asking for our advice/experience in such matters, why not not let all the information out so that we can all pipe in with educated comments, some of us may have used the same guy or about to, we may have a relationship with the mechanic and be able to help?

 

I have to say some of the responses on here and the mechanics in particular make me livid. The same thing happened to me on the ppi for my 328 where the mechanic and even some people here said if you wanted more done then you should have paid more. That's ridiculous considering he asked for a ppi and they told him what a ppi would cost and then didn't do a complete job.

Both my ppi's were sh*t but trust me, there's no recourse.

 

Seems like just the usual stuff on an old car. If the rest of the car really is OK then I'd just fix it up and be happy. You can easily get in to more trouble than this on a 308 purchase. How much was the PPI? How much was the car? Sometimes you get what you pay for

 

Fcar people are no better than anyone else, thinking otherwise is acting like a snob. Personally, violence has its place and sometimes a punch in the head gets the message across better than anything else I can think of.

 

Hockeyfan seems to have run out of puff. Why hasn't he posted the name of the PPI inspector/shop. It seems that many of you know who it may be "the butcher of burbank" surely Hockey fan can assist by confirming who did the PPI

 

The PPI you got from us over a year ago (which you have yet to pay for) was complete, honest and factual..Its the only way..Saw the previous owner at a Ferrari event last week and he said he spoke with you recently and you are extremely pleased with the car...

 

My best friend works for a well known firm, specializing in exotics. He wouldn't do a PPI for me because he'd feel terrible if the car checked out and then began to show the typical signs of a 26 YEAR OLD CAR!!!! Like I've stated before, no one has the capability of seeing inside an engine. As for the small stuff, you would be only kidding yourself if you thought you'd be getting a perfect car. What if the boot was good on the PPI, and took a dump 2 days after you drove the car? How could any certified mechanic possibly predict future malfunctions? What I'm saying is that you should do your best to bring the car up to par, by systematically going through it's minor flaws one at a time. Best of luck with your car!

 

Short sighted view of what a PPI is supposed to provide you. I did one on a TR the other day. The man paid me $600. He now knows as well as he can know it is a soild car and I gave him ammunition based on my experience and reputation that he was able to use to negotiate the car down another $6000. Not a bad return on his investment.

 

Good call, you just missed the fact that the car had been repainted and didn't have original carpets. Both mildly important, no?

 

I thought of posting the list I created but kind of blew it off but since my name came up, here you go. It's by no means endorsed by anyone important, it's just a list of all the things I could think of when I was purchasing my car.

-F
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Nice to meet you Furmano. This list was helpful when I used it last year. A lot of time we intuitively know this stuff but tend to forget it unless it's written down.
--
Larry

 

Most everything has been covered here, and I pretty much go with what Rifledriver says in situations like this! Brian's the man.

Just to play devil's advocate...no excuse for the muffler but if the shop in question is not really into Ferraris, they may have no idea how important (i.e. expensive) a 308 muffler is. Like I said, just playing devil's advocate. Getting a PPI from a QUALIFIED shop is important. They gotta know 308s inside out or the PPI is worthless.

As for the CV boot, well, it sucks, but it's a $20 boot and it will take all of three hours to replace the boot and repack the CV joint.

As for the headlights, we all know that the fusebox on these things sucks. My car used to develop new electrical gremlins overnight, literally. I can easily see how the headlights could have worked for the PPI, then they put the car on a truck and it comes across the country, changes humidity a couple times, a little oxidation forms on those stupid little contacts, and voila--the headlights don't work. I would probably give them the benefit of the doubt on that.

Overall, it sounds like the PPI was absolutely worthless, but in the grnd scheme of things, the stuff that was wrong isn't so bad. BELIEVE ME you could do so much worse than a bad muffler and a dirty contact in a fusebox.

Birdman

 

That was a joke right? Carpets and paint? Is the paint crap? Are the carpet crap? Was there anything really wrong with it? Bad engine, gearbox, nasty rust, screwed syncros, no A/C? Anything? And please tell me that guy is lying and you paid for the work?

 

I have to admit, I didn't get a "professional" PPI for my car. I got the Birdman PPI. Honestly I think that was worth much more than paying a shop to do the work. I had no surprises when I looked her over and, other than the speedo sensor going haywire, nothing since. (Knock on wood) I probably should have had a compression test done, but, hey, water under the bridge now.

And Birdman, if you are down here, I still owe you a beer.

 

Hockeyfan,

You seem like a good person so I'll be constructive.

These are 20+ year old cars that have seen their share of good and bad owners.

When a shop does a PPI they are looking for catastrophic problems and not maintenance items such as a bad light switch or CV boot.

I know the shop you got the PPI from and they performed a 2 hour inspection that was paid for by the seller. Your mechanic was informed about the condition of the exhaust. As for compression testing: there are many factors that can alter the readings. Even the same mechanic using the same gauge will get different readings on different days depending on things like engine temp, oil temp, throttle position, carbon on the valve seats, etc. Compression testing is simply on overall indication of an engine's condition.

My advice is to get in the car one clear morning, drive out of town into the hilly countryside, let the engine play above 4k RPMs, and have fun.

As for the mechanic that did the PPI: when he stated that he did work on more expensive cars, it wasn't to belittle you or your 308 as much as he was telling you that if people trust him with 5+ million dollar cars that you could probably trust him too.

This mechanic has a reputation of being one of the BEST Ferrari mechanics in the US. People ship the cars from California just for him to service them (on the east coast). This is the most honest, and in my opinion, overly fair (he doesn't charge for many extra hours that he should) shops you will ever find.

I'm sorry that your expectations exceeded you cars condition. I'm sure that once past this stage of buyers remorse, you'll enjoy many years of Ferrari happiness.

Good luck to you and welcome to Ferrari ownership.

 

Typically my PPI will start at a set figure, add for a leakdown/compression, add for a 'scope' internally etc.,etc.. Even at that I have been known to not charge and refuse to waste mine or prospectives time when the car is a dog. As with any repair service you are using the shops resources and the expertise of the mechanic, choose them wisely. I have had people dispute my numbers for leakege to find that they were doing them wrong! For all that, you should state exactly what YOUR expectations are as BrianC stated. If you want a sound do-it-yourself fixer upper or a concourse car it changes my approach (and charges). It is unreasonable to not expect some paintwork on any of these vehicles, they are either old and/or driven on open roads, the quality is what will attract my attention.

Certainly the things listed in the original post probably should have been noted, but we know not the whole story..... Local dealers know that I receive service referrals from them but that does not influence my approach to PPI on their sale vehicles.

 

Fuel lines needed to be replaces, ignition wires, a/c belt broke 1st day, front and rear bushings, tach registered at 50%, bad oil leak spraying inside the engine compartment and new tires. No, I didn't pay him. All of the above was a "surprise". Yes, the carpets are ****.

So you think that if you buy a car and when you get it find out that because it has been resprayed and has **** carpets that it doesn't immediately decrease the value of the car? And therefore the "professional" that looked the car over for you and didn't mention any of the above would be responsible for not mentioning it? You honestly feel as if he did his job and should be paid?

Tell me truthfully, because if you do then I will seriously reconsider my actions but as it stands now, I don't believe they deserved to be paid.

 

Happens all the time. One of many reasons many shops do not even do them anymore. I know Dave H has been stiffed by people here. When I do them the bill get charged up front.

 

As far the respray and carpets are concerned, no, unless the car is very low mile "original" then they do not decrease the value. I would say all the items listed are considered maintenance items on these cars that, if not replaced (and recorded) by the previous owner, should be expected to be bad. However, with that written, if all the stuff in the first paragraph was NOT disclosed during the PPI, I understand completely.

 

Mark,

I really can't agree with you on this point. On a recent 328 PPI that I did, all of the electrical switches were checked for proper functionality. With the NLA nature of some of these parts, coupled with ultra-high parts pricing, electric nuances can be costly!

A couple of examples in round numbers:

Faulty column switch: $1,000
Faulty back-up light switch: $100
Faulty hazard switch: $400
Faulty LED temp control switch: $600

And we're not including any labor here...

What about trivial "cracked" lenses? Priced any of these incidentals lately?

Yes, I agree with you that the big things are important, very important...but it's the little (expensive) details that make the difference between a good car and a great car. The fact that the car is 20 years old means nothing to me, nor my client that's paying serious dollars for the car of his dreams...


Regards,
David

 

+100. I am surprised that so many are willing to write this whole thing off and eat crow. Why even bother with a PPI then? Aircraft get PPI's all the time, but unlike cars its generally to determine the aircrafts airworthiness. Because aviation mechanics are licensed through the Federal Government, thier a$$ is on the line if they sign something off or haphazardly overlook things. If this car were instead an airplane, and these items were found faulty or inop after being inspected, that mechanic would most likely lose his mechanics license. I worked with a guy who overlooked checking a serial number on a ruddervator on a Beech Bonanza during an annual inspection. He never worked on that part, and that part had been on the airplane for over 10 years and had been through over 10 annual inspections. But because my friend was the last one to inspect it and had signed it off and airworthy, and because that particular part was NOT certified for use on that particular aircraft, my friends license was suspended for six months.

I learned how to do compression tests when is was 12 or 13. Warm engine, all plugs out, throttle blocked fully open, ignition bypassed, electric fuel pumps bypassed, charger on the battery.... I am appaled to read thread after thread on these various forums over the years of people getting inconsistent results on compressions and leakdowns. This absolutely DOES NOT HAPPEN with aircraft, why are all these clowns doing this PPI's so incompetent? Why do so many of you continue to accept these standards? We really need higher standards and need to weed out these hacks and hold thier feet to the fire. I could do a full annual inspection on a Cessna 172 in less than 10 hours, seats out, carpets out, all access panels opened, wash down the engine, etc... 10 hours to inspect a 308? Was he stoned? He shouldnt be working around cars, thats for sure.

 

When I bought my 308, I did a coin toss to see if I should get a PPI, it turned up Tails, I didn't get a PPI. I bought the car to drive, and have fun with. Unlike many here I do enjoy working on cars. I have you and an extremely talented brother to assist me repairing the car and resolving the many former owners poor repairs.

An example, I asked the dealer about the clutch, he said it looked very good, a few months later I noticed it was showing all the signs of being worn out. I recently tore the clutch down, it had a fairly new but incorrect disc and a very old pressure plate. A PPI would have never have found that. I couldn't blame the dealer on that one.

On the other hand, he would have found the bad light switch which would have cost over $1000. Fortunately, I was able to easily repair it with assistance from a member here who also happens to be my brother. That made the repair fun & educational, it also gave me a better understanding of the car too.

Yes I was discouraged the car wasn't perfect, but part of the excitement to me was doing my own repairs and having the repair not cost little or nothing. Not to say all the repairs have been inexpensive, but all have been part of the ownership of an old car, whether it be exotic, domestic or foreign.

By the way, my CV joint boot was split open too. It was an easy and cheap fix!

 

Doug if I lived 3000 miles closer and had been able to help with picking a car as I do with my customers I can guarantee you that either I could have helped get you a better car for the same price or the same car for a better price. As for the clutch if I had driven it (you haven't driven many 308's prior to yours) I strongly suspect I could have detected something amiss.

Just Tuesday we helped a guy whittle an additional $6000 off the price for a TR. We do it all the time.

The simple fact is 99% of the people out there selling used cars (private owner or dealer) either don't know all the stuff that is wrong with the car or don't admit what is wrong with the car. When we show them in a professional capacity as a 3rd party in black and white, most, not all, will cave and lower the price.

But still the single biggest value is protecting someone from a bad car and buyers are notoriously bad at doing that themselves. We turn thumbs down on a large percentage of cars.

 

If road drivers were only licensed and regulated like pilots.

Wow, the Crall family is all over this post.
Are you guys tethered by an inanimate connection ?