5 yr old/5k mile timing belts

Sorry Larry, but I must quibble with you:
The difference between idling & driving is that the engine & oiil sump reach a significantly higher temperature when driven at highway speeds for 20 miles or so. This gets everything, including the exhaust system hot enough to boil off any water that condensed during the first part of warmup. Yes, when you shut it down there'll be some combustion products left in the system, but only what's generated immediately before shut-down.

Just starting & letting the temp gauge come up doesn't ensure that you've cooked off the large amount of water that condensed out from the 5 - 10 minuites of idling during a minimal warmup. This is a much larger amount than what would be left over when shut-down after a spirited drive.

 

FWIW,
I changed my belts/tensioners on my 77 GTB this past May. They had 8 years, 10,000 miles on them.

Looked perfect... Bearings spun freely and quietly, belts looked fine...

Did it myself, (with Verell's phone-tech help, thanks!), cost of parts were cheap, so, not an expensive proposition. I used Verell's cam locks, kept the old timing, which was perfect, and installed the new parts. A real no-brainer, only hard part was moving the AC compressor out of the way....

Best,
Greg

 

Agreed. These are old cars, and I get the most enjoyment out of mine knowing everything has been looked over, adjusted within spec, etc., when I go for a drive. I trust my 328 as much as I trust my 2008 Audi.

This is consistent with what I have been told.

 

Verell, doesn't the oil get hot enough to boil off water while just idling? It seems to me that it would. My rule on such things is if it's too hot to touch, then water's going to evaporate from it anyways. Just wanting to know.

Andrew

 

Verell, I don't agree with you regarding moisture retention in exhausts when idled. Let the engine idle for 10 minutes and try touching the exhaust pipe. I said what I did because I developed software for a large chemical company to predict pipe temperatures where we were continually concerned with acid vapor condensing in piping or in pressure vessels. Furthermore, the modeling looked at moisture removal in airvey piping (interior of pipe must be bone dry before introducing powder to be moved from one end of the plant to another. Pipelines are over a thousand feet long). Anyway, letting the engine idle for a number of minutes easily gets the exhaust hot enough to boil off the water. If you don't believe me, attach a temperature probe to the exterior of the exhaust line, pre cat. The probe must be covered with some sort insulation else you will get an incorrect reading. Or use an optical device. What you read will be slightly lower than the actual surface temperature inside the exhaust pipe. I do not know if the exhaust is double lined on 3xx series. If it is, you cannot measure the exhaust pipe external temperature directly. You'll find that the exhaust gets hot quite rapidly. The exhaust line is not long at all and exhaust gases are very hot exiting the combustion chamber. Film coefficients are reasonable for heating purposes due to the velocity of the gas so temperatures come up quickly.

Regarding the oil sump. I have never seen water droplets in the bottom of the pan when I drain it. Granted, your oil will never get very hot just idling the engine but, again, I've never seen oil droplets in what I've drained. In wet winter weather, I am one of those who will let the car idle for a while as opposed to not starting it.

I am Lawrence, not Larry. Larry rhymes with my last name.

 

Have you actually done the testing you describe and then compared temperatures on a 3X8 after you having let it idle vs. after driving the car 20 miles or so? Just curious?

Best regards,
Dino

 

I'm not advocating starting the car every month and letting it just idle but how can the idle temperature (~150F) not burn off moisture?

Just trying to understand, that's all.

-F

 

Because of our winter, my '77 308 GTB is off the road for anywhere between 4 to 6 months annually. I put it up on axle stands and turn the engine over on a weekly basis. Rather than starting it, I put a 36mm socket on the crankshaft pulley and give it a good few turns (clockwise). I believe this accomplishes two primary objectives:

1. It prevents the timing belts from 'setting'
2. It helps to keep the valve gear from sticking

This might not be what everybody else does, but I've been happy with the results thus far.

The easiest way of reaching the pulley is by removing the rear passenger side wheel and liner. The pulley can also be reached from above, but it's a tad more difficult.

 

Dino944,

Have not done testing but plan to when I return home from vacation. We've been away all month. I based what I wrote from my experience in computer modelling in a chemical plant and observing how quickly the vapor goes away after starting up an engine. I have an optical pyrometer and will check it after I get home which is Sunday. If the exhaust is double pipe type, you cannot measure it. If I am wrong, I'll admit it. But I doubt I am wrong.

I have to get under the car because I want to remove and clean the heat sensor that triggers the dash red slow down light, something that has been blinking on and off for a couple of years. After some highway running, my exhaust pipe's surface temperature post cat was about 850 F, far below where I should worry. So I don't worry, but the blinking light is a source of irritation. Anyway, I'll start it and take temperature measurement every minute or so pre cat.

 

Hi F,

I'm not a Ferrari Tech, so obviously talk to a few Techs for more definite answers or information. I am simply going by the advice the dealer and the 2 service centers have given my family over the years with regard to our 328.

In terms of burning off moisture, if its largely H20 the ~150F you mention as an idle temperature is not going to be hot enough to burn it off. Thats not even hot enough to boil water.

I guess it will be interesting to see what Lawrence's test results are.

Best regards,
Dino

 

Hi Lawrence,

Thanks for the info. I look forward to seeing your test results when you get a chance to actually test your theories on a 3X8. Keep us posted as to the results of your testing and the conditions under which you conducted the testing. It should be very informative and helpful for those of us living in the northeast that can't drive our cars several months of the year.

Best regards and hope you are enjoying your vacation.

Dino

 

Dino944,

Actually you don't need 212 to evaporate the water. It just does it much faster when the temperature exceeds 212 at 1 atmosphere. Puddles evaporate even though the temperature is no where near 212.

An example would be a wet bulb/dry bulb thermometer used for determining relative humidity. A thin piece of gauze is placed around the bulb of a thermometer. Move it through the air and the temperture reading drops because water evaporation. From the dry and wet buld readings and psychometric chart, you can determine the humidity.

I'll post measured temperatures the first part of next week.

 

Incidentally, the fellow who recommended that I turn the engine over from time-to-time using a 36mm socket is the fellow who built Lot # 183 on the following link:

http://www.barchetta.cc/All.Ferraris/events-stories/events/2002/christie-s/christies-london/index.html

It's a really cool and beautifully built car -- wish I could find more info about it on the internet.

 

A word of warning: I bought a Mondial this year with 8 years on the belts. So I replaced the belts and tensioners. Being new to Ferraris, and with limited time reading F-Chat, I was unaware of the danger of a failed cam drive sprocket outer bearing. I don't think I had 100 mi on the new belts when the rear outer bearing failed. This let the sprocket twist out of its axis, skipping over the belt and taking out 16 valves!!! Nice intro to F-cars. Much more should be said about those "lubed for life" outer bearings.

 

Hi Lawrence,

interesting point, and of course I overrlooked puddles evaporating, but should one consider those a bit different because they are in an open space? Should one be concerned about how long it will take for moisture in a relatively enclosed space to evaporate or possibly cause corrosion on metal parts that the moisture clings to over long periods, prior to its possible/eventual evaporation?

Thanks for some insight into temperatures and evaporation. I'm looking forward to seeing your test results next week.
Thanks again and best regards,
Dino

 

Water sitting under oil wont evaporate any time soon.

 

Mine was 5 yrs & 7200 miles....yet one bearing fell apart....Go figure?

 

I ran across the Tech Bulletin just yesterday cleaning house....."3 years, 3K miles..." on ALL V8s....

Maybe it's the bearings they are concerned about nowadays....LOL!

 

I think the bearings actually fall apart when new?? Or there was a batch that did....

They count on the bolt to hold them together????

I dunno .......I have 'people' to HANDLE my belts....

 

The new Ferrari bearings for 308/328/288/F40 et al are garbage. We took out a few that never even made it to a test drive.

They were never like that in the 80's.

Makes you wonder about all those people putting their faith in the Classheesh program.

 

So I think Ricambi is selling the Hill Engineering product???

I think they stand behind it with tracability, etc....

Man, all my cars need belts...LOL!

I think I have 2 years, 6 years and 14 years respectively... and the young ones are the oil soaked set....

 

"Garbage"......Geesh..my old bearings were SKF...I just had FoD replace my belts & bearings..Now I need to check & see what bearings they used?

 

As promised I measured the temperatures of the exhaust pipe from the front bank just before it joins the rear bank thus upstream of the cat. Tem[peratures were measured optically and are, of course, the exterior surface of the exhaust pipe.


Time In Minutes Temperature Degrees F

0 87
1 92
2 106
3 123
4 138
5 160
6 178
7 194
8 224 Fan started
9 234
10 246
11 260
12 268
13 278