What constitutes 'giving back a position'?

+1,000,000

 

What Hamilton received today was the post-race equivalent of a drive through penalty. 10 places back in the starting grid of the next race could prove to be much worse, depending on the circumstances. It's basically what happened to Kovalinen today after he totally failed at the start, look where he ended up.

 

Actually if you look at it again he did just what you said and there in lies the problem. Lewis did give the position back but he stayed the same amount of distance from Kimi as he was when they were in the chicane. He would not have been that close on the straight had he not shortcut the chicane in the first place therefore he still did gain a competitive advantage even though he let Kimi by.

That said i'm still not sure he should have penalised him that way. He should have gotten grid spots or something. IIRC Nascar has a similar ruling that they don't asess penalties that change the outcome of the race after the race is over. They'll take away points or give you a fine but they feel the fans should leave the track knowing who won.

 

I think the FIA really made a bad decision on this one, LH definitely gave Kimi the position back. Its not LH fault that Kimi wasn't prepared to do battle into the next corner...

 

Actually the FIA Sporting regs are clear on these incidents - within 5 laps of finish it is a 25 sec penalty, before that 10sec. They applied the penalty right out of the regs as the situation dictated by the laps remaining.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpqlEg19NK0

Hamilton Was in front of Kimi going to the bus stop Kimi then forces Lewis wide and their wheels touch. Instead of wrecking them both out Hamilton cuts the chicane. Hamilton then gives the lead back to Kimi then proceeds to re-pass Kimi in the next corner that called great racing. If this happened in reverse the would have been no penalty...

I guess you miss Kimi using the whole run off road to gain an advantage on Hamilton? No,
Kimi did not pass Lewis but Kimi would have been much further back coming out that corner if he'd followed the correct line. What no penalty?

The fix is in and the FIA might as well hand Massa the WDC now...

 

i dunno if this would be fair, what if FIA made a rule, whereby, if a driver cuts a chicane, he would not be allowed to challenge the the leader for the entire lap, he must wait until the start of the next lap to challenge for the lead. sounds fair?

 

I think if it was dry then Kimi would have had no problems keeping Lewis at bay after he'd cut the chicane. The reason Lewis managed to get past so quickly after letting Kimi back in front is that Kimi's car wouldn't slow as well as Lewis's so Lewis got him under braking. I don't know why Lewis's car was so much better in the wet than Kimi's. It could have been the car or the nut holding the steering wheel*. Either way Lewis did give Kimi back the position and then took it off him again.
From what I have read in other threads it looks like the punishment was not for failing to give back the position anyway, it was for not staying on the track. I assume therefore that at future races if a car goes off the track it must just be parked and the drivers race is over as he has gone off the track?

*(C) Martin Brundle

 

+1

 

Hami did not give KR back the advantage he got by cutting the corner. Just watch the YouTube link above again. He backed off a tiny bit...than hammered it on again. It was unsporting. If I was Kimi, I would have lodged a complaint.

That being said, it does seem harsh to completely remove Hami's win after the fact. I would have preferred to see him get a penalty in the next race or something, even though I'm a Massa fan and this benefitted my team and driver. But hey, the rules the rules. He should have made a run of passing KR a few laps earlier...but Hami admitted he was waiting for the rain to come first.

Birdman

 

Actually to be clear, LH was 100% behind KR before overtaking him again and, according to the telemetry was travelling 6kph SLOWER than KR when he was behind him. If that is not giving someone a position back then nothing is. LH passed KR from behind and from a lower speed, that is called a PASS anywhere I've raced.

 

Why wait for the rain if it only make things very much harder and more unpredictable? Unless, McMerc's Traction Control system - er. application of the McSoft engine ECU - is that much better than others on the grid...

Sorry, couldn't resist (donning flame suit)

 

We could argue this point for hours, so we will have to agree that we disagree. Giving back the position is not the same as giving up the advantage he gained in position and momentum by cutting the corner. Honestly, re-watching the video makes it even more apparent to me than when I watched it live. If that chicane had been a wall, Hamilton would have crashed into it or braked deeply to avoid it. In either of those scenarios, he would not have been able to pass Kimi in the way and place that he did. Hence, he gained an advantage. Case closed IMHO.

Birdman

 

All I know is that in the post-race press conference, Hami said he was "praying for the rain to start." So he felt that he had some kind of advantage in the rain. Hmmmmmm.......

 

6kph is nothing as a percentage.
6kph + the tow is about to be a major advantage that isn't the same thing as a cars length and 6kph less.

 

The theory i came up with of why the stewards gave LH the penalty is that even though he let Kimi through he still got an unfair advantage by cutting the corner which led to him passing Kimi for a second time (which was a legal pass). Still a controversial and odd decision.

 

The FIA also needs to be specific with their give-back requirements, especially for different tracks and corners. Maybe that's how they arrived at the 25 second penalty. But someone else mentioned this same point, how different corners provide different advantages. In this case, he should have been required to remain behind Kimi through La Source. But how do you enforce that immediately, and how do you brief drivers for every scenario, every corner? Also, how far back to you retrace things? Had their been an instant penalty, perhaps Kimi doesn't crash. Who's to say? Maybe Hamilton throws it away the next time around. It's a tough call, and there is no perfect solution. Personally, I prefer to lean towards the results of what took place on the track.

 

You don't, and that's why every driver should take "if in doubt, take a step back" as a rule. It just seems that Hamilton's got problems with cutting chicanes, hasn't been his first time yesterday...

 

I think Birdman has hit the nail on the head. As others have said, the best thing for LH to do was wait and pass KR at the end of the long straight, but hindsight is always great. I do feel that he should have been able to keep his win and take some sort of penalty in the next race.

 

what, in your mind, is the correct line? Seemed to me kimi took exactly the correct line. the same line everybody was taking all day.

 

+1

 

Correct KR was 100% on the correct line WHEN YOU ARE BY YOURSELF. If there is a driver next to you the sporting regulations require racing room to be left so that both cars can negotiate the turn. LH and KR were both committed to the corner however KR did not allow room for his competitor as per the rules.

 

Excellent post.

I would add that Hamilton's original move was way optimistic. Passing for a position in a chicane ends up 95% of the time in (i) a crash or (ii) someone going of the track. Once Hamilton went straigth through he should have played it safe, he was going to get Kimi sooner or later.
Hinsight is 20/20 and decisions are made in a split second. I honestly don't blame Hamilton but next time he will think twice about his manouvers when going straight in a chicane.

 

+100 and birdman is right on.