What constitutes 'giving back a position'?

once again missing the obvious. If one car is PASSING another car then by definition there are now TWO lines. They may be parallel to each other, but there are two lines. In other words, there isn't 'one' line if you actually want racing to take place. I think most of you are missing the point that this decision could prove the death of racing. Most drivers will now be hesitant to attack and attempt a pass. Don't let your Ferrari tinted glasses make you blind to the dangers inherent in this decision. Anyone who loves racing for racing's sake should be very worried about the outcome of this race.

 

I did watch it, several times, Hammy was not in front of Kimi yet and Kimi had the line and the right to go where he wanted being the leader. It was a hard move but a legal one.

 

It's called a brake pedal Lewis, use it if you don't have the line into the corner. 25 seconds is a reasonable punishment, and a stunt like that was definitely worthy of punishment. That entire situation could have been easily avoided had he touched his brake pedal and stuck behind the line Kimi set BEFORE Lewis was there. Makes me ill

 

Do we have to go through this again?

 

I have said already in a different thread right after the race that I did not think LH should be stripped of the win. However after watching it again and again and listening to what all sorts of people had to say, I think he got what he deserved. He did not get stripped of the win. He was served a 25 seconds drive through. It happened after the race was over simply because there was no time left in the race. Whether he gave the position back or not, he gained an unfair advantage. In the last five laps of the race it is punishable by a 25 seconds drive through. And if we are going into calculations, say LH pulled this stunt 4 laps earlier he would have had really hard time finishing 3rd, as it would have cost him more than 25seconds.
I believe that he is really good, but when you combine this with his lack of experience and the way he is threated by the press (love the Vodaphone fairy ) I think he is getting way ahead of himself. People do not have to give him the right of way just because he decided to charge. He tryed to bully Kimi and it did not work. Then he cut the corner. If he braked, like he should have, there is no way to find himself in the position he found himself after "giving the position back".
This is not the first time LH has been playing dirty. Talking about being pushed out of the track LH has done this to Massa for pretty much no reason and got no penalty. Also Kubica has been penalized before for simply racing LH.
I hate to see Massa win this way, but the Vodaphone fairy needs to be thought a lesson. He can not do whatever he pleases whenever he does.

 

Every photo, every video suggests that Kimi was in the lead going into the chicane. He had the inside line on the initial right turn, and Kimi then had the line going into the left that completed the chicane. There was no reason other than impatience for Hamilton to use the run off area. This was a slow chicane, he could have tucked himself behind Raikkonen, and we would not be having this discussion.

There is no fix, Hamilton did not use correct judgement and got his ass bitten. Really, end of story.

 

Haven't seen this in either thread..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70rXr2Mkq_M

Hamilton's incar camera view of the incident. Make sure you have your speakers on, and let's see if this can spur some intelligent,err.. intellectual, err.. umm.. uhh.. polite? conversation..

Certainly a different perspective, especially with the in-car audio.. Definitely defeats the argument that LH accelerated through the runoff. I find it difficult to agree with a comment that Lewis was reluctant to give up the position. Not sure how much openwheel racing the person who posted that actually watches, but a typical concession of a position unfairly taken tends to take a bit on roadway.. While I can't fathom doing it more quickly than Hamilton did.

It's interesting how people see things differently due to their affiliations, and how people see things differently due to their impartiality and ability to look at it without the "rosso" colored glasses.

I have a 16 month old daughter. When we finally sat down yesterday evening to watch the race, as the SpeedTV coverage began, and the theme music started, she spun around towards the TV and started squealing "RARRI! RARRI!" and climbed into my chair to watch the race with me and my wife. As the race progressed, she defied the attention span of a normal toddler and focused on the entire proceedings, adding her own occasional soundtrack with a "bvoom, bvoom, bvoom" as the in-car audio caught someone downshifting into a slow corner.. Enjoying the race in the purest sense.

In a season that has brought a close 4-way race for the WDC, without the drama and politics of last year.. In a season where we lost one of the great gentleman world champions in Phil Hill.. In a season where gentleman racer Paul Newman takes his final laps.. And in a season where we see the maturing of what may well be the next great gentleman WDC in Lewis Hamilton, it saddens the purist in me (that enjoys popping in my DVD of "Grand Prix" or "Lap of the Gods" to revisit the pure racing that lived in the past) to see politics enter into this gentleman's sport and taint what is becoming daddy-daughter time for Aidyn Elise and I on Sundays..

Shame on you FIA for allowing stewards to make decisions that seem independent of the governing body.. and shame on those of you in the forum that put aside the honor and history of the sport to cheer the injustice that took place this weekend.

I'll get off my high horse now.. apparently Charlie Whiting wants to seal its' engine for scrutineering..

Todd

 

+1, That's my take too. He should have let Kimi go a bit further up the straight then repassed him the next lap. According to Massa in another thread, all the drivers are warned about this in the driver's meetings. If he knew the rule before hand and broke it anyway then he's in the wrong, case closed.

 

The heck with replacing the chicane with a wall, make it kitty litter or grass...

 

....reading the comments on this thread, there is a reason why most of you are spectators and not racers. In the heat of the moment, LH made the correct decision to let Kimi regain the lead. He then, with the far superior traction and speed that that his car had in the rain, immediately closed on Kimi and repassed him. Please tell me what exactly a racer is supposed to do otherwise. It also seems to be forgotten that Kimi stupidly crashed out when he was LEADING, therefore making the issue of the original chicane pass somewhat redundant. If the shoe was on the other foot..it would not take a rocket scientist to figure out what most of you would be saying then...! Enjoy your future racing, no longer decided by drivers, but by administrative ciphers that make a decision from the comfort of an office. At least have the decency to stop calling this a sport....

 

Excuse me gents, but take another look at the in-car footage.

Now remember that rain was beginning to fall. Kimi dialed-back pretty significantly...enough to let Hamilton close-up a near 2 second gap in a lap or so. So, on braking into the chicane, Kimi was playing it safe, braking a bit early under the less than optimal conditions, and covering the inside line to prevent a pass. Problem is that he was racing against a pure racer that knew his skills in the wet, and he got caught out.

To that point, has anyone noticed how early Kimi braked on entrance into the chicane? It completely surprised Hamilton- watch his flick of the wheel to avoid Kimi! Hamilton, up until the point where Kimi began his braking, was tucking-in behind him probably seeking to set himself up for the drag down to the hairpin. You'll also note that Hamilton's attempted pass at the chicane was no banzai move...did you see any brake lock on either of the front wheels?? I firmly believe Kimi realized that he braked too early, saw Hamilton on an outside pass, and tried to box him out; they were wheel to wheel on entry (in fact, I'd argue that Hamilton had a slight advantage into the turn). Kimi pulled a Schumacher on Lewis and squeezed him out of the corner.

Once Hamilton took to the escape road (his only option other than take both cars out), he knew that he needed to give the position back (which he did by at least 2 car lengths...again, look at the video!) and according to what I've read, the pits were telling Hamilton to give back the position. No advantage was gained.

And again (!!), Kimi was outbraked into the hairpin. Again, no banzai move...no locked wheels under braking...just a nice clean pass. Perhaps Kimi's set-up on the car did not inspire any confidence once the temps went out of the tires in the wet, or maybe Lewis is just a better driver in those conditions. Kimi's spin and crash would certainly suggest that this is the case. Bottom line, he was out-driven and out-raced in one of the greatest finishes to an F1 race in many years!

Take off the rose colored glasses and give the guy the break his absolutely earned. Yeesh!

 

Couldn't have explained this better......excellent.

 

He gave back more since they were side-by-side after the first apex in the chicane.

Fair. Another Ferrari rule added to the books.

Funny that neither Ferrari nor Kimi lodged a complaint. Hmm, maybe they thought LH followed the rules?

On another note, if there was a wall there, Kimi would have taken a different line through the second apex, thus allowing LH to execute the pass and take P1. Passes like this are executed every year at Monaco. Drivers see an opening and go for it.

And for those of you (Massa included) who claim the attempt was optimistic, what would you have done at 55 seconds into the video? Any driver worth his salt would have done the same.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6ovii_wwwformulamagcom-hamiltonkimi_sport