Best Video Yet Of The Events In Belgium

You don't use the steering wheel to adjust brake bias, that's illegal. I believe he was dropping his revs.

 

Again that's not the issue.

 

You're mixing telemetry at the start-finish with an on-board view at the end of the straight.

Lewis was slower than Kimi at the start-finish line ... but still ahead.

What you saw on the in-car video was Lewis *appear* to pass behind Kimi. What you see from outside is that Kimi starts to move to the outside for the turn, has a left mirror full of a McLaren sitting right on top of him (you can't turn your head and look over your shoulder in an F1 car), and then jinks slightly right, and then veers to the left, bleeding off momentum.

It's not so much that Lewis passed behind Kimi, but that Kimi passed across the nose of Lewis' car after losing grip under braking. That's why I'd like to see Kimi's in-car at that point. Sure, you wouldn't see Lewis from that perspective, Lewis was *ALMOST* behind Kimi at that point. But I'm guessing that Kimi couldn't be sure he wouldn't have hit the McLaren. And sudden steering input under braking with minimal grip tends to make things go wrong.

Lewis had not really completed letting Kimi re-pass even after the entire straight, so they were seriously close to each other under braking -- collision type close -- close enough so that it seems to have ruined Kimi's braking for the corner. I think that's the point the stewards were looking at. If Lewis had dropped back earlier or hadn't improperly been in front to begin with, there wouldn't have been a question of interfering with each other under braking.

Given how much Kimi was struggling with the lack of grip, we can't say for sure that he wouldn't have gotten loose under braking anyway. But Lewis drag racing Kimi up the straight left Kimi fewer options for setting up for the La Source entry.

I don't know if I'd consider it worth overturning a race result for, but Lewis certainly did get it wrong, there. When you cut a chicane, you should drop back and then get back on it, not wait for the next corner to have a dive at the other car.

As I said earlier, I think Lewis was annoyed that Kimi didn't leave him room at the bus stop. He clearly had more grip, and was faster. Apparently, the younger drivers think that the faster car gets an automatic wave by. I guess they don't remember Senna holding up the entire grid with a slow but very "wide" McLaren. Remember Alonso getting into a shouting match with Massa over how long it took Fred to get past Phil, even after Phil got a set of unbalanced inters? For that matter, remember Felipe thinking that Sutil should have yielded the pit lane to the Ferrari?

Well, Kimi didn't have to let Lewis by at the bus stop, and he didn't. I suspect the "red mist" closed in, and that left Lewis unwilling to just drop back and do it the hard way. He did just barely drop back to where Kimi was, but not until the braking point, where the cars were in each other's way.

My guess is that the stewards figured that, by not dropping back during the straight, that Lewis interfered with Kimi's braking for La Source, and contributed to the Ferrari getting sloppy there.

Yes, if Lewis had let Kimi repass by the s-f line, he might have been able to catch up under braking. And Kimi might have come loose anyway. But the penalty wasn't for what might have happened, but for what did.

It's a close call. But Lewis did do it wrong. As said, others have gotten it wrong too. But maybe the stewards wanted to warn Lewis to lay off that type of maneuver, before an actual collision occurred. (Can you imagine Lewis trying that move on DC? )


During the race, I figured that Kimi just lost it under braking, and Lewis took advantage of that mistake. But after a number of reviews, it does look like Lewis was a factor in the cars braking for the corner, because he *still* hadn't dropped behind even after the entire straight. I think *that's* what the stewards based the penalty on: Lewis might have been a factor in Kimi getting the braking wrong.

I still don't know if it's worth overturning a race result for.
Both Lewis and Kimi were on the edge of the rules in that fight. But Kimi didn't have a finishing time to add 25 sec to.
Had they both finished, they might have gotten away with warnings or fines, and left this one on the books like Dijon '79.
(The stewards could have had things to say over that battle, too. But when it's decided on track, it's best to leave it that way.)

 

Excellent post taking racing dynamics into full account.

 

DGS, I enjoyed your description of what happened ... rational, entertaining, and unbiased. One question though, you say "Lewis had not really completed letting Kimi re-pass even after the entire straight" , but clearly Lewis was directly behind Kimi as they started braking at the end of the straight. Do the officials or rules say how much of an advantage you have to give back? Lewis was right behind Kimi before the chicane and he was right behind Kimi after he went by at the end of the straight after the chicane. Do the rules say you have to give back the advantage before the start/finish line?

All the best,

 

The problem is not what he did , it is how he did it. The simple fact is that had Lewis made any attempt to stay on track that he would have scrubbed off enough speed that he could never in his wildest imagination made that move on Kimi(at that point). If you really want to dig deep then call Lewis up and ask him why he didnt do in that chicane as they discussed in the drivers meeting before the race. Its not so much physics needed here but common sense.

 

But, however you describe it, Kimi was in front and Lewis was behind, so the order was as it had been before the chicane. The only issue is whether or not Lewis was closer than he should have been and, if he was, had he gained that advantage by cutting the chicane.

 

Steve you keep deleting words. Race controll said they "believe" it was ok. The stewards didnt even have time to react yet. Ron Dennis is a smart coniving man. He tried to cover his azz by asking race controll for a desicion within seconds of it happening. That is why they said they "believed" it was ok. If you were about to take a heavy truck over a bridge and you quickly asked someone you thought was in charge if it was safe to take your 20 ton truck over that bridge and his answer was "I believe its ok". What would you do? As a firefighter and officer I have to watch out for myself and my crew. When I arrive at a scene I have to size up the situation quickly and make some quick decisions. If I ask someone on scene a question about the reliability or safety of something and the answer is " I believe". Sorry thats not good enough and we all know that so we try plan B. Looks to me like Ron rolled the dice and stuck with plan A.

 

The issue with the FIA is waiting until the next turn before passing if a driver cut a chicane:


http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=213719

 

The video has been removed!? Damn. It was awesome.

 

Franco, imagine your Ron Dennis, if you can that is, horrible though I'm sure.

You ask race control about the move your driver made, you ask him "TWICE " just to confirm, race near the finish ,you get a answer ""yes, I believe it 's ok" what do you do, honestly.

 

Nuvolari, I think you are missing an important point, namely that Hamilton would not have been as close to Kimi if he had not applied the brakes as late as he did. As has been pointed out time after time in this forum, Hami would not have made his original move it there had been a wall there instead of an escape ramp. And I don't think he would have made either of these moves if he had known the rain was just seconds away. He was desperate to get by with only a few laps to go. But the risks exceeded the reward. In second he was going to gain on Felipe in the standings, and Kimi would only have gained 2 points on him. This was a much better strategy in the big picture, and as much as he talks about racing for the championship instead of every race, once he gets behind the wheel he seems to only think about that race and winning.

 

It's a fair point, although it was already raining , and Lewis had more traction than Kimi, I tend to think the problem was highlighted, because he made it look to easy passing him.

It was inevitable IMO he would have passed him.

 

It wasnt raining that hard yet and there was plenty of traction still but 30 seconds later it was a whole different ball game. Anyway Monza it here and if it rains hard the Ferraris will have a hard time unless they completely change their setup. Hamiltons car is great in the wet and he knows how to use it. With all the talk done by Lewis it will be interesting to say the least and maybe we will all enjoy the 1.5 hours of racing and forget the mess last week.

 

The onboard view of Lewis passing behind Kimi seems to be as far behind Kimi as Lewis ever got. From the outside, it looks like he was tucked right under the corner of the Ferrari as Kimi started for the outside to set up for the turn.

That's why I'd like to see the onboard from Kimi's car: From the outside view, it looks like Kimi suddenly tried to check his movement to the left, perhaps thinking he was going to collide with Lewis. That kind of steering input in the wet might be what caused Kimi to get out of sorts, allowing Lewis to pass behind and then accelerate away as Kimi skittered over to the side of the track.

The only sense I can make of the penalty is that the stewards must have felt that Lewis being tucked into formation with the Ferrari may have interfered with Kimi setting up for La Source. If Lewis had dropped fully behind the Ferrari during the straight, and then tucked in afterwards, there probably wouldn't have been a question. But Lewis appears to have dropped back only far enough that Kimi might have still been worried about colliding.

 

Removed.
Bernie didnt get his cut ?

 

Three important things when racing:

1) Position
2) Velocity
3) Acceleration

Lewis Hamilton got a *huge* position advantage by cutting the chicane. Sure, he was going slower than Kimi. Sure, he might have been accelerating less than Kimi as well. Without position information the true extent of the advantage can not be gleaned. How is this even debatable?

Argue that the penalty was too strong, don't even think that Lewis didn't get an advantage though. That's just utterly ridiculous.

 

He gave his advantage up.
You just dont get it.
Never will till he's wearing red.

 

So you don't think he had a position advantage? He was *right behind* Kimi halfway through the straight. That essentially means he got no penalty for going off track.

And really, I'm a big Ferrari F1 fan? That's must be a joke. I was defending McLaren last year!

 

Having just saw the replay of it I must say it was probably the right call to make. I first thought it was a bit harsh since kimi gave him no room but in all honestly the rule for cutting chicanes has nothing to do with the circumstances. He really never gave the position back properly. I wouldn't go so far to say ferrari has never been given treatment but I really don't think that is the case here at all.

 

It's not really about giving up the "advantage".

All of us are guessing here, because the stewards aren't saying *exactly* what they think was wrong.

They're pointing to the rules, and the only thing actually in the rules is to race on the track only. Which, of course, everybody violated at some point in that race.

The things about no passing by cutting chicanes, or giving back position or advantage or anything about what happens if you cut a corner -- NONE of that is codified in the actual rules.

It's all from driver briefings, previous decisions, and from "clarification letters" ... which are archived --- where?

If I can't find them, how will the guest-steward-of-the-week know what's in them?

The stewards felt that Lewis did something wrong after cutting the chicane, but all they can point to in the rules is "stay on track".

Welcome to FIA's gray cat in a twilight fog area. (Kitty Fiddlesticks?)

I'm guessing that the stewards felt that Lewis interfered with Kimi's approach to La Source. But that's a guess.
I can't really tell if Kimi was trying to avoid a collision with Lewis or trying to block when the car got squirmy on him.
If the former, the stewards might blame Lewis; if the latter, then getting passed at La Source was Kimi's own error.
But we don't know what Kimi told the stewards during the inquiry, either.


The FIA's "not until after the next corner" letter is, again, just another clarification letter. Violate that, and all the stewards can point to are still just the same "stay on track" rules.


The the recap, the Speed Channel guys were talking about the comments from one of the stewards, and talked about the penalty as drive-through, 25 sec, or 10 spot grid demotion. Penalties *are* in the rules: with 5 laps to go or less, it's 25 sec in lieu of a drive-through. There's *nothing* about a 10 spot grid demotion option. So if the Speed channel guys got that from one of the Spa stewards, it gives you an idea how familiar the guest stewards are with the exact rules and "clarifications". Charlie Whiting should know those things, but who makes the call?

 

Yes I fully concur, good post. The FIA rule book, is like the Carpenter's Rule: cut to fit, beat into place.

 

This really sucks, I sort of agree that Hamilton did gain an advantage, but I still hate the decision. At least there's more pressure on for the WDC

 

Interestingly, the stewards did not address Hamilton's moves going up to Les Combes after Eau Rouge, after he passed Kimi. Looking at the video, it appears that Hamilton made more than the one move allowed, and perhaps as many as six, after Eau Rouge. Some of it may be due to the shape of the track, but I think that Hamilton made more than one move.