Just driving around, I put it in neutral before braking to a stop at. I avoid downshifting to second, unless at a lowspeed uphill corner, and never ever to first. Yeah, love to do fifth-fourth-third at 6000-plus. It's easy to match revs in the 308, trans is very smooth when warm and clutch action excellent.
That's matching the RPMs with peak torque and basically having all the power right where you need it. If you're dicing through traffic (at the track, of course) select the gear that'll keep you in the highest points on the powerband.
The funny thing is of course that racers don't engine brake, at least none that I know. They use the brakes to brake....probably where the name came from. The trans really shouldn't be in neutral and there is no reason for the clutch to be in, but your foot shouldn't be off the throttle either unless its a casual stop becasue if your brakes are balance properly the added engine braking force (which is different in each gear) will unbalance the braking system and incease stopping distance or casue the rears to lock and you to lose control of the car. Engines are for accelerating, brakes are for braking.
Dave- Gone fly-fishing in southern Colorado for four days. My apologies on the double clutching. Keep up the good work. I would definitely enjoy riding with you and watching you work the gearbox. Taz Terry Phillips
In my F1 depending on the situation I try to coast in N to a stop. Although it is an absolute blast though to downshift with paddles while braking
There was something in my owners manual of my former car (84 308 QV) that warned against complete coasting. It has to do with the brake booster. I felt the affects if I costed to a stop and pressed the brakes more than say 3 or 4 times. After that, the brakes became super-stiff. Personally, I've always heard the saying "brakes are cheaper than transmissions", so I coast if i can, but I HATE that "stomp on it or dont stop" feeling. James in Denver
that's the low engine vacum at idle I referred to in another post . . . it's not hurting anything rolling your foot over and blipping the throttle . . it'll get addictive once you learn . .. at first it's a bit awkward. edit: it's really rewarding when your car has some throttle response and a nice exhaust
I agree.. Good exhaust makes it really fun. Once you try it you'll like it. I always run through the gears. 3 to 2 is easy if you rev match. Very tough without rev matching. At least in my TR. I rev match on every down shift. Car sounds great and you really get the full experience. Proper rev matching does not wear the clutch. I don't think I have ever coasted to a stop with my foot on the clutch or in nuetral (unless being tailed by a cop). Not a good idea to be rev matching while one is behind you. It may sound too agressive lol... Never go into 1st unless your at a complete stop. The previous post was dead on. You can get to a really slow crawl while still in second without having to depress the clutch. In conclusion: Downshift, rev match, and drive the car... it's all worth it.. Robbie
and learn to double clutch . . . impress your friends and family edit: it is amazing how fast you can shift once you've been double clutching for years . . . I didn't realize this until I'd been doing it for years . .. I originally thought it was an old truck driver technique and someone was pulling my leg . . . what ends up happening is you start rev matching so well you don't hardly need the clutch 'cause there's barely any rpm mismatch in the syncros and you end up shifting as fast as you can move the lever but in no way is it a power shift like I use to do with a muscle car . . .it can be carried out incredibly smooth . . has to be in order to keep the car hooked up in a corner.
and then you start wanting to stand on the brakes really hard to put your heel where you can really blip the throttle aggressively . . especially if you're driving bare foot. .. okay I need to settle down now
A few of you said to never shift to first in motion. Why is this? I wouldn't do it at 30, but below 20 first is my gear of choice for power. Double clutch, rev match and floor it. What is the risk? dave
yep ... if you don't double clutch it can be a bit stiff at 20 though can't it? . .. advanced techniques . . single clutchers stick to the "no first gear while rolling"
a fellow chatter was telling me he went for a ride with a guy who was trying to double clutch and he was just jerking the hell out of the car . . .. ended up f'g the shift linkage adjustment . . . I don't know about the rest of you but I'm not afraid to ask someone "WTF do you think you're doing?" . . . and I'm not meaning to offend . . just educate 'em on the finer points of driving . . . I've said before there's so much more than just stomping on the gas and brake .. . becomes like a dance cheers
In my opinion, it's relegated entirely to driver preference. Some people like to downshift, some don't. I just like the sound of it, so I do it - however, sometimes I'm lazy and just bring the car to a stop (in gear) without the downshift. Totally up to the driver. When done properly, downshifting creates absolutely no additional wear on the clutch or drive train what-so-ever. As some of you have mentioned, yes - the real purpose of downshifting (when on track) is that A), you're essentially either braking, or accelerating - not too much in between, other than allowing the car to take a set and then use throttle application for mild pitch adjustment, mid-corner, and B), that if ideally you're accelerating as soon as you're done braking, when did you change gears to optimize your RPM for corner exit? Well, you're competitors aren't going to wait for you to make your gear selection and match your revs once you're DONE braking - which then delays your throttle application for corner exit - so the only time to make that gear selection (as a high-performance driver) is to do it DURING the deceleration process... and that's where the famous 'heel and toe' technique comes into play. The only time downshifting becomes harmful is when the driver does the following: -Uses it to 'engine brake' -Doesn't match the revs properly before releasing the clutch -Abusively mashes the shift lever into gear, blasting through the synchros -downshifts too early in the deceleration process and over-revs the engine Engine braking was a technique used 'back in the day' when the brakes on a car weren't good enough to slow the car by themselves - so drivers used the compression of the engine at a higher RPM to help slow the car. For the past 20 years or more, the brakes on any Ferrari are ENTIRELY suitable to slow the car down (at an impressive rate as well) without having to make the poor engine suck wind... -Which means: If you 'wing' a downshift BEFORE you've moved your foot to the brake pedal and actually started braking - you're engine braking - no argument around it. You should ALWAYS begin braking first, to take some speed (and engine speed) away, THEN begin the downshift process. I like to count to at least 'one-one-thousand' after braking, before stepping on the clutch to start the downshift process. Proper downshift 'heel-toe' technique is only heel and toe when you're doing three things with two feet... one on the clutch (hopefully your left foot!) and one on the brake - and actually braking with reasonable pressure, not just faking it - with your toes, or the ball of your foot - and the bottom, 'heel' of your foot then cocked over on an angle, or the right edge of your right shoe just grabbing enough of the throttle pedal to swiftly 'blip' the throttle and raise the revs of the engine - at which point your pressure on the brake pedal should remain constant - and you then release the clutch IMMEDIATELY after blipping the throttle, to catch the revs while they're still 'up'. If you blip, wait, and then release the clutch, the revs have dropped back down to idle and then when you release the clutch, your head jerks forward because you just used the wheels, drive train and clutch to PULL the engine speed up to the same speed as the 'road speed' of the car. That's unnecessary strain. The order? 1. Brake, with your foot over at least 3/4 of the brake pedal (count to one-one-thousand) 2. Depress the clutch 3. Move the shift lever to the gear of choice 4. Pivot your right foot - WHILE braking with consistent (and firm) brake pressure with the ball of your foot - so that the heel, bottom, or right edge of your shoe can touch just enough of the throttle pedal to give it a swift, quick little 'blip' 5. Release the clutch immediately, while the revs are up - while still maintaining your brake pressure 6. Repeat process for next gear As far as being in neutral while braking? On the race track - never. The brake balance in all cars (street or race) from front to rear is designed to factor in the rotational mass and resistance of the drive train when in gear. The higher the RPM, the more resistance, the lower, the less. Without that resistance you effectively change the braking balance and experience 'funky' things in the brake zone (that's my technical term for it, it's late...) Notice in any form of motorsport, when drivers downshift, there's a specific rhythm - the downshifts are equally and evenly spaced apart. Among helping the driver keep a mental 'rhythm' while driving and doing things consistently, you also keep a consistent amount of drive train resistance throughout the distance of the brake zone, giving you consistent brake balance from beginning to end. As for the street? Preference! I personally don't like the car to be out of gear for any reason, at any time - unless I'm REALLY low on gas and I'm trying to avoid having my girlfriend get out and push while I steer... Also, if for any reason I need to stop braking and take evasive action, I want to be in gear so I've got control over the car - and of course, being in the right gear for that speed, that moment, helps. I know, I know - once I start typing I can't stop... hope I haven't bored any of you with all of this - just wanted to add my 2 cents... or 2 dollars?!? If I haven't irritated any of you already - and only if you want - I could lend my thoughts on double-clutching in another reply.. Either way - ENJOY your cars. If they sound great to you, make them sing - either accelerating OR decelerating - just do it properly and you'll never have any issues!
guycosmo - thanks for the information. I would like to hear your input re: double clutching or any other info/advice you have. I appreciate the details and step by step description. Please continue. I am listening (reading). Thanks again, Michael Brown
+1, So it should really be called toe-heel, seeing that that's the process of events, not heel-toe. I'd like to hear about double clutching as well, although I've tried it, I feel it's too much work for street driving. I feel a little guilty about the engine breaking. It's a lot easier to have it in the appropriate gear while heading down hill, rather than to be pushing the brake every second like automatic drivers do.
I am feeling Pure and Complete envy now, got a report from a customer yesterday that returned from the same area. I sure hope you hit as he did.. I learned out of pure need. For 20 years I was tracking old English cars or Vintage Ferrari race cars. Neither would shift properly upwards or downwards without double clutching each shift. The terrible habit to shake was the engine braking while under full braking on the track in a crowd. I was able to get far better than 200HP out of a TR-3 which meant well into the triple digit speeds but OE brakes were required in my class and were sure never designed to do what I asked of them. Turn 5 at Road America, if it wasn't for 14.5/CR, an 8 pound flywheel and clutch and a bunch of gears I would be in the parking lot at Sebkins before I got the fool thing slowed for the turn. This has absolutely nothing in common with modern Ferrari's as their braking systems are on the same level as the drivetrains for most models. Good luck on your trip... FatBillyBob and I will require a debriefing upon your return! Dave
Dave- I was fishing the Culebra Creek small tailwater near San Luis, CO. Hit five fish over 20" (two Browns and three Rainbows) on hoppers and probably near 100 total over three days. Great fishing by any standards. Google Solitary Angler. Odds are FatBilly Bob has fished the Conejos River, which is about one hour from San Luis. I fly fish about 45-60 days a year. This has been a great year for large fish and so far I have hit 28 over 20" this year. I can take guests on the Culebra, where I am a lifetime member, so PM me if either of you are interested. I learned to heel and toe and double clutch on an early, worn out Porsche 356A and an early Beetle, neither of which had much in the way of synchros left. Much practice over the years on 911s and 70s Ferraris. Had a string of Corvettes where heel and toeing was difficult because of peddle placement so had my 2006 Z06's pedals modified with Ultimate Pedals and raised the gas pedal so it was level with the brake pedal when the brake pedal was fully depressed. Worked like a champ. My 575M has F1, so am learning new tricks. The synchros are so beefed up for the later F1 gearbox cars, the gearboxes are all but indestructable. Dave should probably be doing this, but what the heck. Heel and toeing really was that at one time when pedals were widely spread like my early Beetle (in the early days of racing when synchros were nonexistent, some cars even had the brake pedal in the middle to make heel and toeing easier), but now is done mostly with the right side of your foot/shoe on the accelerator pedal to synchronize the revs while the left side of the foot brakes, as guycosmo explained. This synchronizes engine speed during downshifts, but does not synchronize gearbox revolutions. To synchronize gearbox revolutions and ease the load on synchronizer rings, you need to double clutch. As you downshift through the gearbox, move the shift lever from the higher gear to neutral, let out the clutch, and synchronize gearbox revolutions by raising the revs using heel and toe. Push in the clutch, select the next lower gear and engage the clutch while keeping the revs up to match engine speed to transmission ratio. Repeat for the next downwhift. Takes longer to describe than it does to do after practice. Luckily most Ferrari pedals are nearly perfectly placed for heel and toe. Some older vehicles and many trucks had non-synchro gearboxes and it was sometimes necessary to double clutch on both upshifts and downshifts, or accept a crunch on the upshift. On downshifts, though, you could not even select the next lower gear on some trucks I have driven without double clutching. Much like Dave's experience with Moss type transmissions. A continuous graunch is the only thing you would get if you did not double clutch. Taz Terry Phillips
Downshifting sounds really cool but one the things it does besides wearing out the drivetrain is shift too much brake bias to the rear wheels. On a bicycle it's fun to lock up the rear wheel. On a car going more than 20 MPH it will almost always result in a spin if the rears lock up before the front under braking. Once a wheel locks up, that wheel losses all directional control. Under hard braking almost all the weight of the vehicle shifts to the front wheels. If you then lock up the rears the car will almost always swap ends and you will find yourself going backwards very fast. If the car has the brake bias set up properly downshifting to slow down will put too much braking power to the rear. The driver will have to compensate by releasing some of the pressure on the brake pedal and ultimatly the car will not slow down as fast. That said If I have a car on the track, and I know the brakes on that car can't hold up to that kind of abuse I will use the drivetrain to slow down but I will start much earlier. I have seen many experienced racers using the drivetrain to slow down even on formula cars with excelent brakes and I always shake my head as I pass them. Most street cars are setup with the brake bias a little too much to the front to assure the car is safe. If you really knew what you were doing you can compensate for this a little using some engine braking but you'd better be good at it.
Just thinking...........Motorcycles need to be downshifted to get back to first gear, you do not have a choice. But I think this is a different type of synchro mesh. And what about paddle shifters? Do you downshift with those as well?
Most motorcycles don't have synchros, the gears are more like the gears in formula car gearbox. Try and shift a motorcycle real slow and you will hear the gears crunch. On street cars with the paddle shifters you can hit the downshift paddle three times at 150 mph but nothing will happen till the computer sees the car has slown down enough. You also have anti lock brake systems so locking the rear brakes is not an issue.
We have many know it alls, but you cant argue with Guy, hes a REAL pro. As near God Giuseppe Risi says among others engines are expensive, brakes are cheap. All that said driving around the streets if Im having fun, then I dont have a care about wear. Im downshifting w/heal toe, hard braking, edge of friction circle tearing up rubber, busting the rears loose on acceleration, and popping the gears at redline. 75% of the time just tooling around town then everything is smooth.
More to the point at the limits, you're putting additional strain on the contact patch. The effort to pull the engine up to speed will put additional drag on the point where the drive wheels contact the ground. If they're already at the limits of traction, they'll come loose. At which point, things can get "interesting". That's generally track technique -- but snow can turn your daily commute into driving at the limits, too. Sloppy catches up with you, sooner or later. In that process, you're still using the synchros to spool up the transmission input shaft to match the new gear. In "double clutching" (with, say, a bash box), after step 2 you'd move the transmission to neutral, declutch, and blip the throttle, using the engine to spin up the input shaft to a speed close to what the gearing will be. If you do that *perfectly*, the transmission should (theoretically) slip right into gear without even clutching again. In practice, you usually clutch again to shift into gear, using the throttle to keep the engine at the right rpm. But on the road, I tend to use the procedure you describe. The synchros are pretty hefty on a 3x8 box. (The exception is first and reverse ... and 2nd when cold -- the times where the synchros don't work all that well.) (The other exception was my friend's Alfetta when it lost the clutch slave cyl. You'd have to back off power, slip it out of gear, rev match in neutral, and slip into the new gear, all without the clutch. (Just to save the towing charges to a shop 30 miles away. ) But that was back when/where you could do 30 miles without having to come to a full stop. (You could get pretty slow in 1st on a 5spd box geared for a 55 mph national speed limit.) The initial start up was hard on the starter motor.)
