FIRE! semi Ferrari related, brake problem

I completely rebuilt the brakes on my 1983 Mercedes 380SL, new rotors all around, new master, new pads. Rear pads appear simular in size and shape to pads used on 308's and other european cars. After a short drive with no hard or exessive braking, I began noticing strong hot brake smell, then the pedal turned to mush and I babied it home. I got out to check the fluid level and seen the rear rotors were very bright cherry red hot, and the pads were on fire shooting out brilliant white and brilliant greenish blue flames and showers of brilliant sparks, like a fourth of July sparkler. It almost sounded like a sparkler, a fizzy crackling sound. So much heat went into the wheels before I doused them with a hose the plastic center caps fell out on the driveway.

The brakes wernt dragging, and even after dousing them with water the car rolls easily by hand, the pedal is back firm and solid, and at least hydraulically seems to have survived. I did some Googling around on the web and read of simular events of pads on fire with red hot rotors listed with VW/Audi owners who bought lifetime pads from various sources. I didnt buy pads from Mercedes for some stupid reason, and unfortunatly I cant recall exactly what brand these were, I dont always keep good reciepts. All I do know is that I bought them at Bumper to bumper/O'Reilly.

I assume the rotors and calipers are junk, I just hope it didnt also cook the hub bearings. But the scarey part is it appeared to be getting ready to really go up in a blaze. By the time I ran to get a hose and came back to douse it I had flames coming out the wheel holes. I guess the warning here is to be very careful what, and who's brake pads you buy and put on your car. I will admit negligence and ignorance in not taking more seriously where I buy parts, especially brake parts, but I have NEVER seen anything like this in 40 years of wrenching. Something in those pads, perhaps some mixture of magnesium or other materials is causing people to have these problems, and I believe the potential exists to burn a car to the ground. Be careful out there.

 

Certainly a shocking occurrence, glad you didn't burn up.

It's hard to imagine enough heat buildup without significant dragging.

I suspect your brake hoses are deteriorating internally and acting like a check valve when you first applied the brakes. Once the fluid boiled, they released, but you then had no brakes.

 

Without discussing my mechanical background I feel I have a pretty good level of experience to make the claim the brakes wernt dragging. The car worked absolutely fine before this work, the only change is new rotors and pads. I jacked the car up and the wheels turn freely, even after excercising the brakes. Nothing is hanging up.

I'm not so sure these brakes were going to stop burning on thier own either, but were instead were going to continue to accelerate. When I first seen them after getting out of the car, the rotors were bright red, and the pads were just sparkling a bit. But within the few seconds it took to get the hose turned on and drug over to the car, I had flames coming out the wheel vents. I dont know what the hell they made them out of, but they shouldnt catch fire and burn.

Hopefully tonight if I have time I will pull the wheels off to see what all I destroyed. But looking through the wheel at the rotor face it looks to be all covered with fine scrapes and gouges. Like it might appear if the pads were made of gravel or ground glass. Some of the scrapes or gouges appear to be .050" deep. They couldnt look any worse if the pads had gone down to bare metal for a few hundred miles.

As much as it does not make sense, I believe there is some material in the pad that is making a chemical reaction.

 

Or wrong metallic content. Weird.

You get them from China?

 

Wow!! That is crazy sh*t Paul!!

Glad you didnt get hurt or and your car didnt burn to the ground.

I automatically thought the brakes were dragging. But if you reckon they werent........well DAMN!

I am at a loss! I have NEVER heard of this sort of issue or a chemical reaction with the rotors/pads etc...

I really hope you get to the bottom of this, it would be nice to know what happened. Can you take the parts back and tell them what happened?? Perhaps get some replacements of the same and try it again or at least get your money back for the rotors/pads. Keep a fire extinguisher handy next time.

 

They had to have been dragging. How could the pads have generated that much heat in normal braking on a short drive? A chemical reaction with the rotor doesn't make much sense either. I'm very interested to see the findings.

 

Does it have ABS?

 

Because for the first 30 of those 40 years, we weren't trying to put all this metallic powder in them. Doesn't have to be Magnesium, any metallic powder is way dangerous in concentrated form so could be poor mixing/dispersion in the blended materials of the pad brew. But based on your description, I don't think the NHTSA would be too happy with a brake pad that burned very aggressively once ignited, regardless of why it was ignited (i.e., poor self-extinguishing behavior), and any manufacturer that made a pad that did that consistently was stepping way out on a legal limb. Be interested to hear how it all works out, but do you really even need a metallic pad on your 380SL? (IMO, a lifetime-guarentee semi-metallic brake pad is no bargain in the long run on a street car)

 

The only pad material left are these little charred slugs in the four backing plate holes. The pads were wiggly loose in the caliper and pulled right out with my fingers, I can push all four pistons back with my fingers. The dust boots are completely charred away, the pistons look pretty cooked. Master still full, pedal still solid, I think if I put new dust boots back on I could still use the calipers. The wheels are okay, but the back mounting face looks like it got pretty hot. The rotor had grey paint on the hat portion and its pretty much gone except out at the very outside.

I'm not a chemist, but the only conclusion I can come up with is I got some weird batch of pads. China? I really cant say for sure, but I believe they said Mexico. I'm digging around but I probably dont have the reciept. Ive been contemplating talking to the parts store, but they are just going to say they were dragging like some of you have suggested and look at me like I'm an idiot. But I am telling you guys, this could have been bad. The original pads I removed had been in the car over 12 years and were not even half worn. Why I didnt bother to drive the distance and get the correct brake pads I dont know, but I will never do that again. I will buy factory OEM brake pads or known types from known brake manufactures that people have tested. If any of you contemplate buying no name brake parts, or know someone who is, even for a car you dont drive much or drive hard, even a daily driver beater, you might want to rethink it.

When you look at your rear wheel and see the rotor glowing brighter than a freaking toaster element with weird sparkler like flames coming off the calipers and out through the rim, when you know there is a fuel tank right above it, Its a strange feeling. I grew up with carburators that caught fire, I got so used to it that it didnt even freak me out. Stop at a light, see paint bubbling on the hood, oh, carb fire. This freaked me out. It really looked like burning magnesium.

 

Thanks for the heads-up.

Can't tell you how glad I am it wasn't.

Hope you're not losing any sleep over this real, scary situation.

 

I did last night. Goofiest thing I ever saw, and if anyone said something simular I probably wouldnt believe them either, so no hard feelings.

Steve, I didnt ask for semi metalics, I asked for organics because I didnt know if another semi metalic would be too hard on the rotor.

 

100% agree with you that the semi-metallics cost way more in the long run due to the increased rotor wear, but are you saying that you asked for organics, got organics, and those burnt up; or you asked for organics, and they substituted semi-metallics thinking they were doing you a favor? Strange that an organic pad would burn up (although I guess the binder could be flammable too) -- one of the very few things that is relatively safe in fine-powered form is stone/rock (as long as you don't breathe it ) because it's already fully oxidized.

 

Oh, I was 100% certain you did. Truly scary things will do that to the aware man's psyche. After tossing and turning, then opening your eyes after a real eye-opener, replete with the horror of possibilities, must have mindset to get over this close brush, replace what needs replacing, and embrace every day even moreso than before, which will help you sleep soundly at night.

 

To the best of my knowledge, I believe I asked for and recieved organics. I really was hoping I could see what the pads looked like to give me some idea what I was dealing with, but thier gone.

Wax, I cant really say I was scared as much as I was freaked out.

I want to thank everyone for your concern, its appreciated.

 

Paul,
I'm with Steve Magnusson, I would report the incident if you can find info on the maker and model # of brake pad:
http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/

 

Normally I keep the reciept for parts like these in the parts box so I have it in case there is a fit problem. Once the parts come out of the box and are installed, and once I see no problem, often the reciept goes away with the box. Other more expensive parts that have warrantees I hold out and add them to the file. I drove the car downtown and back a few weeks ago, about 6 miles total, and not seeing a problem i'm pretty sure the reciept went with the box and got a deep six. But I do recall the brakes were smelly that time too.

Lesson learned, I will save ALL reciepts from here on out. But without the reciept I dont have any way to tell what they sold me. Hopefully I just got some fluke pads and others wont be suffering this problem.

 

Glad that you're OK!

Never heard of such a fire...have to wonder if you got Chinese parts.

 

Stop by the parts store and ask for pads for the same application in all variations. You might remember the box once you see it and be able to match up the backing plates.
It would be very interesting to get to the bottom of this. Steve raises a very good point and a little effort might help someones kids on the way home at night some day. Worth the try.

Dave

 

It looks like a "fire test" is in order.

It would cost the price of an additional set of pads but would likely get to the bottom of this.

It should be pretty straightforward to test combustibility (The result should be "zero").

 

+1. I had a drag and near fire event on a Ducati rear, but in that case - fortunately - a stop sign prevented me from continuing speed enough to override the rogue braking force. Rear master packed up and let the pad touch indiscernibly and the cycle began, and this on a 450lb bike that you can push & feel easily vs a heavy relatively tough to feel car. Point is I don't know that you'd feel a very light drag on a car...?

Assuming the other hardware wasn't damaged by the pyrotechnics make sure this isn't an issue with the cylinders. Unless the pads were a hair too thick there must've been a reason they were contacting the rotor when they shouldn't have been.

 

And that, in a nutshell, is why I will NOT be following up on this any further. I have performed well over 400 brake jobs in my lifetime (3-4 a week professionally over a several years, plus whatever I have done privately), I have even worked on aircraft brakes, and I believe I can tell whether brakes are hanging up or not. The brakes on this car didnt drag before, during or after, the car idled off in drive without adding power, even up a slight grade. I can now (and always could), push the caliper pistons back with my fingers alone. I have been wrenching on cars since I was 13, nearly 40 years. I just dont know how much more anyone could offer to make the point there was no drag. And if I cant tell anymore, I guess I better hang it up. I am not trying to be obstinate or offended, i'm being honest.

Brakes really arent rocket science, any moron should be able to distinguish if their brakes are dragging. The point is, brake pads should not catch fire, or be able to burn with such ferocity as to risk destroying your car or jeapordising your life. I have actually owned cars that had dragging brakes, and even so, none caught fire or burned up in 20 miles of light driving. To see a brand new set of pads completely vaporised in such a short period is rediculous. But John Q is not going to be able to argue his point as well as I, he doesnt have the experience or the knowledge to back it up. And if the parts store guys are going to argue with me that the brakes were dragging, if people here are going to make the same conclusion regardless of the evidence, they are going to eat John Q for breakfast.

My conclusion is that I got a fluke set of pads, a bad batch. The industry and the store managers are going to claim installation error or heavy braking or a mechanical defect and this will remain under the radar until (or if) it becomes epidemic. I am going to put a set of dust boots back on the calipers and put in a set of OEM pads, and that should take care of it unless I warped the rotors. But someone has, or is going to put something like these on thier kids or spouses car. Hopefully it doesnt burn their car to the ground or worse. And it begs the question, how many cars have burned to the ground after the brakes set the fuel line on fire?

I found this link. Take this image and expand the hottest rotor color all the way into the hat area, and imagine white hot flame with blue and green showers of sparks coming out of the caliper, with physical flames coming out the top of the wheel. Even if the brakes dragged on a car that should not happen. And once the car comes to a stop it should self extinguish not continue to increase in intensity. I fully believe that had I not hoses the brakes down I would have lost the car. If ya'll want to believe I screwed the pooch and didnt know what the hell I was doing, go put a set on your kids car.

http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/projectcars/0409scc_project_mitsubishi_evo_vs_subaru_sti/photo_11.html

 

All correct. I've done some pretty nasty stuff to brakes/pads/rotors in my time and never had pads turn into sparklers. Including a major brake malfunction in a new car loaded with 4 people going down a long very steep hill with only one front brake working, finally came to a stop and looked at wheel to see red hot rotor and rim so hot even the tire couldn't be touched, yet no sparkling pads.

Simply, bad pads. Likely wrong metallic content.

 

We still need to know the brand of pads that caught fire, regardless of how you feel. Lives could be at stake. There's a bigger picture here.


Here are some brake pad fire links:
http://www.miata.net/products/perform/vgx.html

http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/projectcars/0409scc_project_mitsubishi_evo_vs_subaru_sti/pads.html

 

O'Reilly store brand AFAIR. Probably the same crap you'll find anywhere, just reboxed under a different name. Autostoned, whoever, they all sell the same garbage. I just never imagined someone could screw up something as simple as brake pads.

Yes, lives could be in danger and I do understand the bigger picture. But when you have no physical proof you can share other than your word, when your experience is called into question, what is left? I have stated twice that the pistons move back freely with no more effort than finger pressure, and that the car rolled off at idle, yet people still say the brakes must have been dragging. I could just as well say I spoke to Jesus last night or seen him walk on water. If people dont want to believe, they will find every way in the world not to. Especially the parts store who isnt about to admit their parts are suspect, always blame a mechanical defect or installation error. Maybe if I had videoed my work and the ensuing fire I would have more credibility here, but all I can really offer is my word, for whatever thats worth.

They caught fire. And dragging or not, those pads could easily set a car on fire and burn it to the ground. And I am not even so sure a chemical fire extinguisher would have worked against them, I think you need to get the temperture down with cold water or maybe CO2, something that would probably be unavailable at the roadside. To me it appeared they had their own oxidizer. I would be curious to know how many car fires could have started by something like this, or if anyone has ever investigated it as a cause of a roadside car fire.

 

Go back to the store where you bought them and see if they can find a record of the transaction. If you paid in cash that might be hard to do but I'm sure if you explain what happened they should be willing to give it a shot. How many set of those exact pads could they have sold? Can you at least remember the day you bought them? If you paid with a debit/credit card it should be easy for them to look up. Worth a shot anyway! The not knowing what went wrong would drive me NUTS if it had been my car!! Approach them from the safety standpoint not a refund angle and they should be even more helpful.