O.K. Let's try this again!!

Hey guys little help again please! 1981 Ferrari 308 in Staten Island on Ebay again!! 3rd or 4th time I believe! Item #220288585886. Based on his rather crappy description of the clutch and gear/synchro issues how much do you think it would cost to sort these issues out? What is a reasonable offer taking into consideration it's issues? Looking for a daily driver maybe in the low to mid teens when most all issues are addressed. Realistic or not for this one. Thanks.

 

Based on the fact the gears all grind? If its not the clutch, it probably needs syncros. Engine out to overhaul gearbox.....

24K on the belts, but how LONG ago is the question......

Car looks like its been a while since anyone was in there with a wrench, wires and hoses look old, gears grind, needs a service. If the gearbox needs an overhaul, might as well complete a full engine out service.....

I would think your looking somewhere in the neighborhood of $3000-8000 in parts, labor extra to bring that car up to good mechanical condition. No one is going to know til they dig in and see whats up.

This one should go pretty reasonably, why dont ya look at this one?
180294518710

 

Or what about this cheap 308 in Florida -- 270281717296 Might be a good fixer-upper.

Regarding the Staten Island car, if it grinds going into every gear, you *might* get lucky and it could turn out to be something as simple as the wrong gear oil. On the other hand, in the event of needing a gearbox rebuild, I might just buy a good used gearbox from a car being parted; probably less money than doing a rebuild, and I wouldn't worry about matching numbers on a car like this.

By the way, that rose-colored Mondial 8 coupe in Ohio is a rebuilt salvage car, so don't even think of that one . . .

 

What do you think is a good price considering a worst case scenario for the gears/clutch issue? This guy paid around $19,000.00 and I guess is just looking to get his money back. Would be nice if it was just a gear oil issue but what are the chances considering the symptoms of the car as he describes them? Whar do you guys think about the rest of the car and is any able to go see it? Thanks.

 

Man, they should donate that 308 to the local high school auto shop class. Sorry, but the current bid at $16k is too much.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&viewitem=&ru=http%3A%2F%2Fshop.ebay.com%3A80%2F%3F_from%3DR40%26_trksid%3Dm38.l1313%26_nkw%3D270281717296%26_sacat%3DSee-All-Categories%26_fvi%3D1&item=270281717296

Here's a peek...
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I like how the description refers to it as "the easily repairable rust".

 

Tony, do you really think he paid $19k for it? Worst case, in today's market? $17k tops. Lately it seems that neglected 308s are coming out of the woodwork and their values are going down the dumper like so many other things. For example, this one appears to be ten times better but only sold for $23k http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=140268684897&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=004

Granted, it's not red but still seems to be a much better car. I'm not trying to steer you away from Mr Italia of Staten Island but the transmission issue is a big red flag, imho. In addition, you can't determine the usability of the timing belts just by looking at them.

How far are you from S.I.?
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The bidding is around $7,000.00 right now for the Staten Island car. I live in Southwest Florida so I am a ways away obviously. I think when I had this car on another post there was a gentleman who said he lived 20 or 25 minutes away. Any other help or advice would be appreciated. thanks. P.S. I was never really interested on the other car referred to on this post, the one with all the rust.

 

Tony~

With a buy it now of $18500, I think $7900 is far away from his reserve, and with a gearbox issue he's looking for a sucker. Sure, it might very well be an oil issue, but your betting with hard cash that it better be. To often cars have real mechanical problems that no amount of oil will ever repair. I wouldnt bet anything other than the car has a serious unknown problem that could cost and arm and a leg. Always assume the worst and buy accordingly, at least then you know your starting out on level ground.

Take whatever number you have in your head you feel the car is worth with a good gearbox, then deduct the cost of a good gearbox plus the labor to R&R it. IOW, bad gearbox = about $8000. That car is worth $10-12K at best, but someone will probably bid it up higher than that black car. I take it you do not want carbs, correct???

 

Paul --

Come on . . . do you really think I would wager the core of a deal on it maybe being gear oil? I wouldn't buy a fixer-upper unless it were cheap enough that there is no way I could lose -- i.e., not any of the cheap 308s I've seen lately! I guess I've been doing this too long to feel the need to verbalize the obvious.

With this gearbox car in New York, if I wanted a cheap 308 and liked this car, I would wait for the seller to not sell it on eBay for $18k or whatever it is he wants for it, find a gearbox for a few grand, then make the 308 seller some kind of an offer in the mid-teens. Trailer the car home, see if you get lucky with the gearbox. If you do, yay - bonus! If not, I would change the transaxle (and fully service the car) myself. When all is said and done, with a bad gearbox, the right person *could* drive and enjoy this car for $20k or so. Obviously, that would require the seller coming down a bit, and the buyer would have to be someone with more time and skill than money. What the seller is asking for a car and what he will get or take are not always the same! If he takes something reasonable for the car, then great; if he holds on to his price, then walk -- there's always another!

But the truth is, I wouldn't buy any of these cheap 308s that have been up lately (and there have been a lot of them!). I am pretty much a DIYer, but I still went the other way with mine -- bought a car with over $140k in service history, and just about every system of the car overhauled by Ferrari specialists, the crown jewel of which is an engine & gearbox rebuild photodocumented by Michael Sheehan. I read every page of the service history, read between the lines, researched the previous owners, did the "PPI" myself on a lift, spent at least eight hours with the car getting to know every nook and cranny, and knew exactly what I was getting the next day when I plunked down a bunch of bills on a conference room table.

. . . but I certainly wouldn't knock anyone buying the scruffy 308 and giving it some tlc -- at any price. If you enjoy it and get satisfaction from it (and don't get into trouble), then it's worth it.

 

Well I am still at with this guy! Now he tells me the synchros are o.k. but it needs a linkage adjustment? What exactly does that mean or is this guy full of B.S.? I told him I would give him my 1991 Alfa 164S in beautiful condition and $6,000,00 plus I pay for shipping on both cars. I figure that should come to the low teens which would take into account major crap wrong. Funny how all of a sudden the synchros are alright and it's just a linkage thing? Comments please!

 

My .02 would be to stay the hell away from this car. FWIW, Phil Tegtmeier may still have a real nice 1976 308 GTB for sale in red/black. http://www.philvilleusa.com/text.php?PageName=Inventory

Phil is an extremely well respected Ferrari expert and was recommended to me by members of this board when I began my Ferrari search. Phil is a real gem of a man and as honest as the day is long. I don't know anything about this particular car, but I stand behind the seller, as do many others on this board.


Good luck!

 

Stories. Cars with stories always seem to get more complex as they go along. IOW, first you need boots, next you need waders, and you better plug your nose good cuz the stuffs gettin deep.

That black 78 GTS sold for only $15,600. That was a good deal IMHO, provided it checked out.

 

Too bad you missed out on this one I sent you in a PM back on Oct 2nd.

Forza Motosports: 1980 GTSi 19,948 miles, Buy it now $23,500.00

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&sspagename=ADME%3AB%3ASS%3AUS%3A1123&viewitem=&item=200259707624
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Why would you even consider buying a 308 fixer upper? The price difference between a fixer upper and a perfect needs nothing car is just not that much different. Do not be fooled into thinking it will not cost much to put one back in shape. The owners of those cars know that fixing the car is a bad economic decision. That is exactly why they are for sale.

I am in the business. I am one of those people who the cars are brought to and I am the one who has to break the news to a proud new owner that their $15,000 car needs $20,000 worth of work to be worth $25,000.

It is one of the reasons I do not work on very many 308's anymore. Dreamers buying junk and wanting, hell, needing the car restored for no money.

It aint a Toyota and they cost far more to fix today than they did in 1979.

Buy a perfect car and save yourself a ton of money and headaches.

 

I agree unless you're a hardcore DIY'er and want a 308 that will hang with and even out perform newer cars. If you are a gearhead buy a car for $15k and spend $10k ($5k if you're me but I out source nothing) on it and you'll have a car like mine. You might not get any of it back but from a personal ownership standpoint I think it's way more fun having a 308 that runs and handles like a sports car than a 308 that just looks like one. I don't understand why more gearhead guys don't take this route. Probably the intimidation factor that it's a Ferrari and a few calls about parts pricing it's over. Again, from my personal experience, there are places that have very very reasonable prices for parts out there ... . and then there's the places that I think the guy's must be wearing ski masks with the prices they charge .

If you have to pay someone to fix everything, forget about it. Buy a cherry and only have guys work on it that are highly reccomended on this forum . . you get what you pay for in that respect.

cheers

 

If that is the case that is fine but most buyers in the catagory I speak of have no idea how much it is going to cost all up. Most you describe don't either for that matter.

I did break my own rule recently and bought a 328 needing quite a bit. I have sunk quite a bit of time and money into it and the project is far from over. It was far from a sound economic decision but one I went into eyes wide open. In my case I kind of felt like saving one from being parted out by Ted Rutland but it will be a $75,000 328 by the time I am done even if I don't put any value on my time. For that money I could have a no mile perfect car and be driving it instead of working on it.

 

I've got a reciept from Ron Tonkin GT for $7500 (2004) for an engine out ('80 308) and replacement of one synchro. Includes belts and clutch too.

 

Brian of course is spot on....

My red daily driver just got a 30k service for only $6,800....

The blue 'left in barn car" needs the same and also brakes and clutch, estimate is $12,500.

If you cannot take those kinds of 'wallet spankings" (a classic JRV saying) the 308GTB is not for you.

On that Philville car, he is VERY well respected in his area of the country I'd checkthat 1976 out if someone was serious, it only needs a stock steering wheel, VERY hard to find these days but maybe not impossible? It looks like he has known that car quite som tim having sold it before...

Dr. Barry knows Phil thru FCA and speaks highly of him, spend your money with folks we know.........

 

With all due respect to all the Ferrari enthusiasts who have been very helpful and not judgemental of someone like myself who dreams of owning a Ferrari but is not a mechanic or so called expert I thank you. Do not want to wait to long to own one and do not have to have the best or the latest. Just something I can drive and and maybe learn a few things while having fun with the car. As far as not being a so called mechanic a have a mechanic who did a complete engine rebuild on my Alfa 164S and it was not rocket science to him and I thought he was very reasonable with me. I do not see any reason why a 308 would be any different. If you're good you're good. All of us dream of owning a Ferrari someday and not all of us can go out and get the latest and the best today. Some of use have to wait longer or get something that is not going to put us in deeper than we thought. A few people seem to disagree with this and feel the need to tell you and frankly come across as rude or degrading at times. Sorry we can't all be millionaires or so called experts, after all that's what this site is for if I am not mistaken. If I offended anyone I'm sorry, just my two cents. Thanks and any other help would be appreciated.

 

Tony,
I don't think anyone was intentionally trying to insult you, rather, they were trying to protect you from the pitfalls many fellow owners have suffered. I think the the general consensus among Ferrari owners past and present is to stay away from these cars unless you have enough disposable income to fund them properly. Otherwise, what ends up happening more often than not, is that the little problems get left unattended and maintenance is deferred until the cars reach critical mass and are no longer viable to repair. We don't want to see you get involved with one of these types of cars. Furthermore, if you think a fixer-upper is the most you can afford, you also may want to wait awhile. I have owned italian cars before and, when it comes to cost of ownership, believe me, Ferraris are on another level.
it is not unusual to find 308s/328s or mondials with well over 15K in receipts in any given 5 year period. The bottom line is that Ferraris can be shockingly expensive to own to the uninitiated, regardless of whether you can do the work yourself. Also, keep in mind that more Ferraris have been ruined unintentionally by unskilled hands---just ask Rifledriver.

Of course, the cost of ownership is offset by the lack of depreciation in these cars. Nonetheless, the best way to protect yourself against a good wacking is to get the best sorted Ferrari you can afford rather than the fixer-upper.

Other's mileage may vary...this is just my .02

 

Tony, No one is trying to insult you at all...your dream of owning a Ferrari is one that obviously we all share. But the truth of Ferrari ownership at the low end is that the maintenance/parts on the less expensive models sometimes make up a huge percentage of your 'buy-in' price.

THE POINT IS THAT THERE ARE NO CHEAP FERRARI'S -- MAINTENANCE IS NOT INEXPENSIVE, AND CANNOT BE DONE BY JUST ANYONE. ASSUME $100/HR for labor and parts that are sometimes/often difficult to find (quality and availability) and always priced at the top of your expectations.... you are not in Alfa-land any more Dorothy.

Everyone here tries to keep people from realizing their dream of acquisition, but watching their dream turn to a nightmare when they struggle and consciously try to defer maintenance due to the costs involved. Stare long and hard into the mirror and be sure that
1) your wallet (and family) can cope with an unexpected multi-$K surprise (because they happen to all of us)
and 2) that you will truly be happy driving a semi-project car (eg. cosmetics and some mechanicals lacking for awhile).

Thats all. We ARE trying to help you. But the old F-Chat adage of buy the "best example you can afford" is well founded.

Best of luck to you, but I'd spend my cash on something that is fairly well sorted...and you will still have a few gremlins to sort out for yourself. So don't worry about not having that wonderful opportunity to work on your car yourself. That opportunity will be there for sure.

John

 

I can tell you from first hand experience how to do everything on a 308 and make it better. I find it's not that it's rocket science, it's the number of hours it takes to do certain things especially if you don't have a lift and tools. You're mechanic may have all the skills but unless he's related to you he's still going to be charging an hourly rate which will make the most simple repairs seem pricey. If you do it yourself that's where the savings come in, but you can't be in a hurry and if you get frustrated easily forget about it.

There will be nothing you can't get help with here . . just be prepared for the car to be off the road for a week or two until you get familiar with how long things take and what you should and should not tackle on a Saturday if you want to drive the car on Monday. I love experimenting with these cars though. I can get my engine out on my own in about 4 hrs now so I really have no fear since I have spare motors and gearboxes to boot.

cheers and good luck

edit: BTW I'm not a mechanic . . I'm a geek . . well not really . . geek by trade

 

Here are some fun costs you won't find in Alfa land:
Mondial new plastic console (if you can find one) $1800.00
roof latch $500.00
Rear tail lights $750.00
30K maintenance kit: $1000.00 plus (parts alone)
Blow your engine---sell your house

low production numbers=Part scarcity and a small aftermarket. Hence, VERY expensive parts. By comparison, they made a ton of Alfas over the years so parts are readily and cheaply available overseas. Of course, in many cases you can cross reference parts on a Ferrari, but you must be VERY CAREFUL of misinformation. A lot of the stuff floating on the internet and on this board as well, is just wrong. To be candid, Rifledriver may appear abrasive to some, but people like him and David Helms are required reading for anyone ready to jump on board. Finally, a Ferrari is not the car you want your mechanic learning on unless you are a big fan of the butterfly effect. You can't wing it when the cost of screwing up is so astronomical. I cannot emphasize strongly enough how many good Ferraris have turned into parts cars due to the wrong mechanic.

 

I know I'm in the minority on this one but I think the 308 is affordable for a "qualified" DIY'er (attention to detail, patience, free TIME! etc.). Without stirring the pot about counterfeit parts, there are suppliers out there that aren't trying to retire off of selling 308 parts.

edit: the 348 on the other hand .. WOW . . makes the 308 seem like a Chevy . . I'm not kidding. Seems like there are a lot of used 308 hard parts floating around but not so for the 348.