While I really appreciate seeing them used as intended I understand those who have put blood, sweat and tears into bringing them back and are unwilling to go through it again.
i noticed that as well. even the paint seems to have broken off in sheets where the paint itself is nearly a 1/2 inch thick!
I just cannot get over this comment. Sure if you are rich, who cares, race it, wreck it, fix it. Not everyone can do this. Most insurance will not cover damage done on the track. From your post is sounds like unless you are rich and able to track your car,you are not honoring the history of Ferrari. With all do respect after looking at your profile, your cars are not vintage and are basicly disposable cars. When they are gone nobody will miss them. Nobody will care. If they get damaged on the track, most any body shop can order body panels from a wherehouse and do a repair, if the car is even worth repairing. Vintage cars are a different animal. Hand made. Alot more at stake if damaged. Kepping a car in the garage and driving it on special occasions and bringing it to car shows to honor the marque is fine in my book. Driving a 430 or enzo on a track is not honoring Ferrari's history at all because those cars have none.
The driver of the 250GTO, Frits Kroymans, is famous for driving it on and beyond the limit. He has crashed that GTO a couple of times, I believe. Onno
Agree 100%. And see this: http://www.pbase.com/steephill/strettoncrash Yes, maybe this car is "repairable". But if so, how much of it's originality is left?
I like the way you do that... And this is exactly what should be done with these cars, Ferrari or others.
It is great to see these cars race, but not see the **** beaten out of them. Race a car and there is a chance it will end up dented. Race it faster and it will end up dented. These guys I would assume did not go out there to wreck there cars, but with a good percentage of owners the red mist settles in and the result is not what you wanted. The cars do not have to sit in a museum to enjoy them nor do they have to be driven at 10/10ths. Sure they were designed and made to be safely driven fast. The operative word there being "were". That has long since past. Now best they are driven safely.
I have been to Monaco historic gp and Vernasca silver flagg it's wonderful. A museum is boring compared to Monaco i went to one in Nice with one TDF it was dead.Before this vintage racing who wanted a racing Ferrari or Maserati from 1955 or 1936? I choose Laguna Seca before Pebble Beach al the time,i admire the people who race there cars on the track. And i hope Andys opinion is respected. Best regards, Magnus
Exactly my opinion. I have read once that Nick Mason has said analogously that the badge with the chassisnumber is whats valuable and that everything else could be rebuild. Someone who says this doesnt understand the cultural and historical value of these pieces of art (and the responsibilty of the owner of such a piece). If you buy an expensive picture of Picasso and you destroy it somehow - even if it could be restored, it wouldnt be an original Picasso anymore. Old cars of course have a story to tell with all their damages and so on, but these story is finished historically when the time of these cars as a racecar is over. As Jim said: Use them but dont race them (and risk that they could be destroyed).
Looks like Saturday at a NASCAR race from the pictures. Only difference is the NASCAR fans love to see 'em bumpin' and grindin'. I think everyone here would agree that seeing classic cars getting all bent to hell is not your idea of a good time. I dunno. I don't play in this league, I can't imagine owning, much less wrecking a car like this. Strikes me as reckless, both from an historical standpoint and a monetary one. Sure it can be fixed, again and again, but why? Want to tear ass around a track in a vintage car? What's the point. Rich old guys crashing multi-million dollar cars isn't my idea of a fun spectator sport. I love these cars, I have had the pleasure of being up close and personal with several of them, but I can't see the point to really rubbing fenders with them. When I want to see racing, I watch from the stands or on TV, as modern race cars play out the drama. If I want to see a classic car, I go to a concours, or a track day where swapping paint is against the rules and will get you tossed from the track. I don't think racing these is analogous to listening to Mozart or viewing a Picasso. The worst thing that can happen with Mozart is the orchestra bombs a few bad notes at you. The Picasso can be poorly lit, making viewing more difficult than need be. Neither of those will result in the permanent destruction of the original object. This silly faux racing certainly can, and no doubt will. C'mon guys, what's really the point of this vintage stuff? Rich guys showing off their cars, proving that a $100K repair bill is "no biggie." It's about ego, not about "sharing" their experience with others. DM
I think Jim was saying that he likes to use them his way, but leave the racing for others. Each to their own, and he made a very funny comment to emphasis his point. I lot of vintage racing takes place in the US where bent metal is extremely rare. Steve Earles events have a great culture of showcasing these cars out on the track and percntage that see damage I'd guess is less than point five percent. CSRG has a similar culture and incidents are similarly rare. I have vintage raced since 1985 and so far have managed to go out and have fun and drive the car home without a scratch. Although the drive home at times seems more hazardous, at least on the track all the cars are going the same direction and most of the drivers are pretty skilled. The only damage I've had was when my 166 was shipped home from the Mille Miglia. When Alitalia turned it over to me it had major dents on the nose, fenders, trunk, etc. Most likely vandalism while in there care. Kent White straightened the panels and It had to be completely repainted. That did not stop me from running it in the Mille Miglia again the following year, or the Monterey Historics, etc. You just won't catch me racing across the pond. Cheers, George
C'mon guys, what's really the point of this vintage stuff? Rich guys showing off their cars, proving that a $100K repair bill is "no biggie." It's about ego, not about "sharing" their experience with others. You need to go to a couple of vintage races. It really is about sharing the cars and experiences. Folks in the pits are very friendly and the ego level is in check. Having done vintage racing of cars and now motorcycles there is a skill that is an art form driving these cars and bikes around a track that I can appreciate. Driving a 50's Vette or 50's Ferrari around a track at speed you apreciate the skill required. These are not easy cars to drive fast.
I think that for some its about blowing off a 100k bill and not caring. For others though, it puts them in the moment that perhaps they watched as a kid, while a 250GTO came first among his contenders, and with financial success, they can reenact that moment with them in the drivers seat. Honestly, I don't think we can judge without going behind a vintage racing wheel and seeing what its like.
First, I've had a number of replacement panels fab'd and now run with them. There are still original panels on the car, though, and, if necessary, I can even purchase spare original panels elsewhere in the event of an incident. What's under the panels concerns me, too, though, and there's no way to prevent damage and wear on these items if you're going to run them. But the original motor and tranny are pulled and spares were installed. People do what they can to minimize damage. At least I do. These are multi-million dollar toys, and few have the stomach to write one off completely. However, worst case? Classiche's available. Albeit at crazy prices. Regarding the US Historic Challenge, I think it's fair to say that there would most certainly be some sort of penalty levied for this incident. But, that's of course without knowing the lead-up. The last incident I am personally familiar with resulted in a 1 race suspension. It involved a faster car in the midst of a race for the lead that was lapping a slower car and the slower car moved over on the passing car entering a corner. The faster car was penalized, even though the slower car was black flagged at two successive corners. The track workers confirmed the slower car, who entered the corner wide, tightened the turn up on the faster, inside car. Minor damage resulted, btw. IMO, it was a just an incident, and either both drivers deserved a penalty or neither did. There was also a 3rd car in the mix (the car that the faster car was trading the lead with) that made some "interesting" maneuvers that helped set the stage for this. Anyway, it's just racing. Nobody got in their car that day thinking they were going to bash up a few million dollars of hardware. But, that's how it goes sometimes. From what I've heard, the Euro Historics are a bit more aggressive, and I would generally agree that the Europeans see more carnage. Now, to the rest of you who are so anti-historic and vintage racing...if you're so concerned about these cars, then buy and park them. Otherwise, it's the right of the owner to do with it as he (or she) wishes, and your opinion means little. You're all entitled to them, of course, but until you own them, you don't control them. It is not a NASCRAP race. Never will be. Don't be sensationalistic. There are owners of these cars who choose not to race them (such as Napolis and BryanP, among others), and that's their right. I would never tell them what they should and shouldn't do with their cars. Don't get all preachy about how they should and over-reach, either. CW
Ouch! Glad that the driver survived and is on the mend, but the reality is he was over his head (I was not there, so take my impression with a grain of salt). The car looked pretty straight (i.e., no obvious damage) as he drove off the high side of the turn. I'm certain, in all similar cases, that it was great fun right up to the point of no return. In my little circle of enthusiast drivers (primarily M Coupe/M Rdstrs) I try to stress the fact that it's better to enjoy the fun from 7-9/10ths than to deal with the aftermath of an incident at 11/10ths; takes the fun out real fast. I too like to see the historic & vintage cars being driven in a race-setting, but whole-heartedly agree that they deserve respect and the driver's should bring it down a notch. I'd hate to see them all get wrecked, just on the odd chance I could afford one some day
Never said they were easy to drive. Never said they were bad guys, but, owning a vintage race car that's $1MM or over is about the rush you get from owning it, and the thrill you get when others appreciate what you own, all of which, no matter how you slice it, is about ego. Hell, I get a huge thrill when someone asks me questions about my 360, or when a group of folks would wander over to my Dino and peer inside and make happy sounds while asking all kinds of questions. I'm not condemning these folks, just being observational. Oh, and I've been to vintage races, just before they were vintage. And the cars, and the drivers were jsut as accessible then as they are at the vintage stuff now. Pit lanes were open, drivers milling about, shooting the breeze with us lowly fans. DM Dave
I've only been exposed to maybe a half dozen of these guys. Really high end guys, some vintage raced, some did not. Several Ferrari guys, one Jag guy, and a collector who has a stunning collection of race vehicles from the 20's to the 80's. I think they were, by and large, VERY successful, very rich, and very generous with their time and their vehicles. Not a bad guy in the bunch. (well, there was one TdF owner who was rather a snot, but he's the exception that makes the rule I think.) I'm not yapping at the owners, per se. I think what they have is a wonderful gift that they share with others. I just don't understand the need to mash these cars, of which there are so few examples. IF they were zipping around the track, making happy noises, but not rubbing fenders, would the experience (for 98% of those watching) be any less enjoyable? How about for the drivers? Well, that's the rub. I guess if these guys want to wreck their priceless masterpieces, they are welcome to do it. You could buy a Picasso, slash the canvas, and have an art restoration expert return it to (more or less) its former glory, too. But to deny that this is an ego trip for these guys is ludicrous. Owning any Ferrari is an ego trip. It's just these guys add more zeros, and IN MY OPINION, get some pleasure out of being able to brag, "I can afford to wreck 'em and repair 'em." Like, at a lower level, the regular Ferrari owner who brags to his buddies how much his last service cost. "My major was $7K last week, hell, it's ok, I can afford it." Only difference, he didn't have to wreck his car to initiate the repair. Look, I love these vintage cars, they are works of art, there are not very many of them, and I just think if you want to race, race something that's easily replaceable, like a Yenko Camaro, or a Brumos Porsche. It's just my $.02, nothin' more.
You're speaking like that's the goal. The "need to mash these cars"? They "want to wreck their priceless masterpieces"? It's not, and they don't have either the need or the desire to mash or wreck. Sometimes (and very, very rarely, I might add), it's an unintended consequence, though. It happens. But, how many vintage and historic events are run each and every year at which absolutely no contact is made? I'd bet a VERY high percentage. There is always the possibility that it can happen, and, on occasion, it does. For whatever reasons. If you don't want to risk it, don't race it. However, those who do enjoy the pleasure of experiencing the car as it was meant to be, having fun, making some friends (maybe) and challenging oneself. The fact that it costs a lot of money to do it is incidental. Anyway, I do deny that it's an ego trip. For me anyway. I couldn't care less what anyone thinks of my cars. It's nice that they appreciate them, but I don't do it for them. I do it because I really enjoy the environment, the people, the racing and the cars themselves. I have nothing to prove to you or anyone beyond earning the respect of the other drivers on the track with me. My .02 is that you have a very confused view of ownership. If you want to own a Ferrari because of what it says to someone else, that's your prerogative. I buy the cars I buy because they make me, and me alone, happy. CW
Martin Stretton is actually one of the most famous and succesfull classic racers in Britain today (of the caliber of guys like Peter Hardiman and Mark Hales) and was certainly not in over his head. I was there but I have no idea what happened, it was a strange accident. All I know is that lack of driver ability was not the cause for this incident. I know you put your grain of salt in, but just wanted to clarify. Onno
But the chances of wrecking at a concours are what? .0001%? I've seen one guy mash his car up in a rainstorm at a concours, and the front spoiler was replaced, and I've seen a Dino have a golf ball sliced off the hood. So, if I've been to twenty concours events, with 200+ cars at each event, that's pretty slim pickin's when it comes to damage. (.05% to be somewhat more precise.) At vintage races, how many cars take some sort of hit? I'm not suggesting these guys are looking to rub fenders, but it is an unavoidable consequence of this kind of driving. Hence my post. No, they don't set out to MASH their cars, but the chances are pretty good that it's gonna happen. Even something stupid like a rock getting tossed up and cracking a windshield can be a pretty pricey proposition for a 250GTO. Hey more power to you if you drive in these things for the pure joy of it. Would you have any less fun in a car that cost $30K with equally matched cars around you? Would there be a crowd of people wandering into your pit stall asking questions about that car? You're getting defensive as all hell about this. You don't need to be, it's cool if that's what you enjoy. I just think it's a shame that these extremely limited edition cars get put at this much risk. My ownership view is skewed? I've met hundreds of owners, all kinds. Some with $100MM+ collections, some with a single car that they drive, buff, show and enjoy, much like myself. I don't think my view is skewed at all. There's no confusion on my part here about what owners are like. But I get it, you drive cars on a track that are worth a ton of money and you enjoy it. Would you take that car out on the track and enjoy it less if there was no one else on the track? Sure, it's the competition that makes it fun, right? Tell me you don't get a rush when you win? Or simply beat a guy out of a corner? I'd get a buzz when I won a platinum with the Dino, then hop in the car and drive it on home. To each to his own, right? I just wish the guys would do this stuff with something that there are 5,000 examples of, instead of 5, 25 or 50. DM
