Maserati Khamsin

Marc, regarding the bumper situation - I still intend to get together with Luc as you suggested. Getting my baby up and running right is my first priority, of course.

 

Common sense never spoke more clearly!

Since I left 3.5 years ago and have only ben back for two 2 month stays since, there might be new shops that know what they are doing. It is definitely not a car for bubba shade tree mechanic. Don't hesitate to contact me I can make some calls for you, will be glad to help.

Best regards,


Marc

 

One other thing to consider. It's rather hard to diagnose something like this over the Internet but a well known phenomenon that can cause terrible noises like something is very wrong with the engine is a misalignment with those belts that run the alternator, AC, water pump and hydraulic pump. The design of these belts/pulleys is such that if any of the pulleys involved is out of alignment the belts tend to ride up in the pulley slightly and snap back down making a noise like someone has thrown pebbles in the crankcase.

A can of "belt ease"? or something like that will eliminate it temporarily thus proving that this is your problem. The only real solution is to align all of your pulleys. You may have to make a tool for this. I think Frank Mandarano a.k.a. "Chilli Dog"? alluded to this recently in a post somewhere on FCHAT and how he got a car real cheap for just this reason. I believe Maserati made such a tool for the QPIII which uses the same design pulleys and belts. It's a noise that disappears once warmed up and does sound something like rattling chaiins as well.

This might not be your problem but it's worth a look.

Bob S.

 

Here is what the seller had to say in an e-mail today: "The clicking you hear from the engine bay is the relief piston for the hydraulics...like much of the car, when cold, it will be quite a bit louder than after the car warms up and the system builds pressure across the board. Disturbing but normal, as they age they tend to snap back into position loudly."

Any truth to this, should I be concerned? Your comments and thoughts are appreciated.

Best regards, Michael[/QUOTE]

Hi Micheal
That is very much on the money.
The regulator for the hydraulics is mounted on the side of the foot well and isnt easily seen.
The regulator will Clack/clunk when it closes. It is the frequency of this that is more important than the noise.
Most Khamsin I have been involved with and mine included, the hydralics cycle on and off every 5 seconds for a internal leaky varietiey to only when a demand is put on the system, steering clutch etc.
There is one other place the noise comes from and thats the tiny M series belts that drive the hydraulic pump. they will make a sharp but not load clack sound. Soap on the belt fixes that. Just ask a Merak owner.

the cracked Alternator mount you mention is common. When you get a new battery buy a little low ampage trickle charger problem solved.

 

Here is what the seller had to say in an e-mail today: "The clicking you hear from the engine bay is the relief piston for the hydraulics...like much of the car, when cold, it will be quite a bit louder than after the car warms up and the system builds pressure across the board. Disturbing but normal, as they age they tend to snap back into position loudly."

Any truth to this, should I be concerned? Your comments and thoughts are appreciated.

Best regards, Michael[/QUOTE]

Hi Micheal
That is very much on the money.
The regulator for the hydraulics is mounted on the side of the foot well and isnt easily seen.
The regulator will Clack/clunk when it closes. It is the frequency of this that is more important than the noise.
Most Khamsin I have been involved with and mine included, the hydralics cycle on and off every 5 seconds for a internal leaky varietiey to only when a demand is put on the system, steering clutch etc.
There is one other place the noise comes from and thats the tiny M series belts that drive the hydraulic pump. they will make a sharp but not load clack sound. Soap on the belt fixes that. Just ask a Merak owner.

the cracked Alternator mount you mention is common. When you get a new battery buy a little low ampage trickle charger problem solved.
Graeme

 

Hello Michael:

Sorry I had not noticed this post, just the one on the bumpers.

Well some Khamsins do have that hydraulic pressure click louder than others: mine (1242) could barely be heard, whereas another that I drove numerous times, 1054, had a rather louder sound but do not worry it is normal: it is just the pressure adjustment: that sound is when the pump either starts or stops. Come to think of it, in the half dozen Khamsins I have been in only 1054 had that sound...and maybe 016 so les than half in my experience.

Now: what Bob says makes sense so you might want to check that as well, however I do beleive that the issue is that I mentioned above.

Hope this helps.

With best regards,

Marc

 

Michael...

I would recommend Steve Claassen at Tropical Sportscar Center in Ft. Lauderdale...
He has done work on my Khamsin prior to my move to Tennessee...

The clicking sound you are hearing may have greater implications... This past summer
I also heard a clicking sound from the engine compartment.... I to checked the belts
and it was not this...The clicking was not regular (ie: no pattern to it)... I had the
brake accumulators recharged and installed a new main sphere... This solved my
problem! Do you have any idea when the accumulators or the main sphere were
recharged or replaced? This should be done about every 10 years or so! I did the
labor work myself (including the hydraulic bleeding)... Total cost was under $400.

Let me know if you have any questions....Who I used, parts source, etc..... I am in Florida
this week on business (West Palm Beach)...

Mike D.

 

This is why I came here...owners or former owners sticking together to support preservation of an endangered species.

Bob S., thanks for the info. At first, I thought that maybe the belts were it. However, it seems to be as Marc and Graeme describe. Nevertheless, I will try the "belt ease" test for good measure.

Mike D, thanks to you too. I don't think the sound is the accumulators/sphere as my sound does have a regular pattern. Steve C. seems like a good resource and I will contact him.

Marc and Graeme, thanks for the confirmation. I do believe that you are correct. And, I am planning to use the trickle charger.

I will post pictures of the car soon!

 

A general comment about what I have learnt about hydraulics and accumulators in the Khamsin system.
The Khamsin runs what is effect D series Citroen hydraulics but higher pressure.
The Khamsin runs 64 Bar the Citroen is only 46Bar
General tests for the accumulators.
There is a primary one that is not overhaul able and if the system is healthy the power steering will still be able to turn the steering for about 5 minutes after the engine is off.
The two brake accumulators have enough reserve for 7 to 11 full applications of brakes after the engine is off.
If only one brake accumulator has a charge the brakes when applied make a strange noise as the pressure differential in the batcher valve ( master cylinder) very hard to explain its a sort of sound like VUT chattery noise.
The Brake accumulators are from a a D series Citroen with three connectors on top. They are overhaul able and are recharged (with nitrogen is best prolongs the life of the diaphragm) to 750 psi

You need to run LHM in the system. Some aircraft bods know its Shell 4 (Mil-5606 spec mineral oil red) except it is green. Use the LHM or LHM Plus be very careful as the latest Citroen fluids are not compatible.

Early on the Girling brake fluid and some still are Green very similar in colour and some cleaver mechanics put this in the system to there very expensive detriment.

There virtually no seals internally in a Citroen system except for brake callipers.
The entire control system work on very tight tolerances of 2 micron or 2 one thousands of a mm so the system needs clean fluid.

The System is very reliable and will do huge miles before the parts need overhaul with the exception of the accumulators which have an advised overhaul at 10 years

 

Michael...

Don't mean to beat a dead horse....But I can't stress enough to you to make
sure the clicking you are hearing is NOT hydraulic related...When my clicking
first started, I thought it was in the valve train perhaps..Fortunately, it was
not... Then I thought it might be the hydraulic pump which might be just as
a bad (ie: EXPENSIVE!)... After talking with some folks they suggested the
rebuilding (recharging) of the brake accumulators and replacing the main
sphere with a new one...After all, you don't want to be going down the road
some day and have brake, clutch, etc... problems...

If you are not sure when these items were last serviced, I would strongly
suggest you do them... The cost is less than $400 (if you do the work
yourself) which is cheap insurance for such important systems...You can't
go wrong here!

Mike D.

 

Point well taken. Best as I can research it, the car changed hands twice, rather quickly, before I came to own it. Unfortunately virtually no info was provided as to whether or not the systems had been properly serviced. I handled the majority of the restoration on a 1968 Mustang Convertible many (getting old) years ago, so I like to jump in and get my hands dirty. I plan to spend some more time getting very familiarized with the hydraulics on the Khamsin and then I think I will take your advice and do it myself.

Best regards, Michael

 

I have to say that I am very happy to see this thread snowballing in a positive friendly manner: that was the intent!

Best regards,

Marc

 

There is no way you can confuse the sound of the regulator cutting in and out with the noise I'm describing. If it sounds like rattling that's not the simple noise of the pump & regulator cutting in/out.

You did say it dissapears once warmed up ? That won't happen if you have weak spheres and the pump is constantly engaging. Once the spheres go badly the pump just stays on. BTW, spheres go bad just sitting on the shelf. In that respect they are like milk. You should always date then when installed and only buy freshly cgarged examples.

Believe me, the sound of these belts makes most fear the worst for their engine when they should not. It's an inexpensive experiment to try out the belt ease. Fixing the problem is a little more involved. Good luck and don't panic. Get some brand new belts too. They are available here in the USA from Gates via special order.

Bob S.

 

Marc, this is a bit more than a thread. A tapestry perhaps? There are all sorts of topics covered.

 

Hi Bob...

Do you know what car it was that Frank M. first discovered the problem with the 'jumping' belt? If it was a Khamsin, then
it was probably mine as he owned it at one time... But, perhaps it was a QPIII, I can't remember correctly... Maybe, I'll
have to look it up in an old issue of VCM...

I think though, when one doesn't have experience in the various noises, fan belts jumping, hydraulic regulators clicking on
and off, etc...it's hard to tell exactly what's going on... That was my experience here... The regulator was clicking so
rapidly that I first thought it was in the valve train, even though I knew that didn't seem right... Next was the belt,
having remembered that from an old tech tip... Once that was ruled out, I thought it might be the hydraulic pump, which
can be expensive... With that info, and the fact I knew the spheres and accumulators require servicing, and not knowing
when they were done last, I figured it couldn't hurt to try that relatively cheap fix first... Fortunately, that was it...

I really like your idea about ensuring you mark your accumulators to indicate the last time they were recharged...This will
certainly aid current owners, but is also indespensible to future owners....

Mike D.

 

Bob: Yes a tapestry a smorgasbord whatever you want to call it but it is great to have it after seeing the Khamsin ignored for many years.

Mike: yes it makes sense to indicate the time of change on the spheres: mine were on 1242 from 1994 to 2006.

Best regards,

Marc

 

It was recently here on FCHAT but he's told the story before. I've experienced it on my Bora. I've had main accumulators burst the bladder in the middle of the Nevada desert when there was a batch of bad ones on the market. I've not had the regulator cycle so quickly that it produced the kind of noise being described here but as I mentioned earlier it's pretty damn hard to diagnose this stuff without sight & sound. His idea of the noise may be different than ours. With the Bora it's right behind the drivers seat so you can feel the pump and regulator working. I'm sure he'll get it figured out.

You could do a search on FCHAT and find it.

Bob S.

 

Here you go http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?p=137944960#post137944960

 

I must be a bit slow on the up take but did any one else see these

1982 Maserati Khamsin Coupe
€103,500 Bonhams 10 May '08
1982 Maserati Khamsin Coupe classic car auctioned, LOT number 180. Extraordinary time warp condition responsible for 33,500 Euros above guide price paid ...
1976 Maserati Khamsin Coupe
€65,525 Artcurial 28 June '08
1976 Maserati Khamsin Coupe classic car auctioned, LOT number 40. Mid-estimate price paid...

 

Does any one know what the actual carpet brand/type that was used in the Khamsin?

 

Thanks Graeme: yes in fact I did post those results back in May and June when they took place: if you go back to late June early July you will find my post on the Artcurial sale of Khamsin #132 and what it sold for.

Now that you have Mister Cozza's fax number you can ask him about the carpet brand.

best regards,

Marc

 

What a wonderful thread! This caused me to sign up with Ferrari Chat for the first time.

Looks to be a great resource for all Italian cars but upon seeing the Maserati Khamsin
mentioned, I had to join in.

From what I see, there are educated linguists, journalists and Maserati experts from the
world over here and I am glad to meet you all.

RM

 

Welcome aboard.
I have been returning here more than any other site of late o yes its definately a good thing.
My only Concern is this thread has taken a life of its own and will have some much info in it it could stand alone. Cue Marc!!
Cheers
Graeme

 

RM??? Related? Are you Rob Meyers? ::))))

Ciao!
Walter

 

Hi All I took this about an hour ago from my Khamsin of a friend's in his Khamsin on the Freeway coming home from a lunch run with my local Club.
for the Record this is a RHD automatic car Chassis AM120 0315
Graeme
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