Manhein numbers for a 2004 GT3 -- 09/18/08 MANHEIM Regular $52,750 18,529 Avg BLACK 6G 6 Yes 08/21/08 MANHEIM Regular $70,250 7,280 Above WHITE 6G 6 Yes 08/01/08 RIVRSIDE Regular $52,000 9,132 Avg BLACK 6G M No 06/26/08 MANHEIM Regular $76,500 9,305 Above BLACK 6G M No 06/12/08 MANHEIM Regular $65,000 3,907 Avg YELLOW 6G 6 No 03/13/08 RIVRSIDE Lease $56,000 40,792 Avg BLACK 6G 6 Yes Dale
Hey Rob - sounds like you need a membership at Rennlist I'm sure true Porsche-o-philes will correct me if I'm not right here, but: 996 GT3 381bhp, 997 GT3 415bhp Weight on both is just around 3000 lbs, the 997 had no sunroof delete option much to the rather odd annoyance of the p-car community (it is after all a road car not a race car). 993 had the RS, and the RS3.8, but neither of these were imported into the US, there are 3 RS3.8s here after Jerry Seinfeld federeralized one. I know a guy at AM of NE that has one of those for sale right now asking 250K! Similar track performance to a CS on the road cars, I can more accurately contrast a Grand Am spec 997 race car (sequential GB etc) vs a Challenge car since I've driven both. V different to drive handling wise, obviously with engine placement etc, the 997 with a sequential is more work because the gearbox is somewhat tricky being a true sequential, its certainly not as easy to shift as the sequentials I've driven in formula cars. Its more predictable to drive, and is perhaps slightly easier through fast corners than the Ferrari which can get a little scary through fast stuff (if you set it up loose). The IMSA cup spec (v similar to grand am) 997s were 2 or 3 seconds a lap quicker than the challenge cars at Montreal, largely because they are way lighter. The race 997s have carbon fenders, carbon bumpers, carbon doors, the only steel is chassis, roof and rear fenders. It feels a lot lighter, runs about 450bhp vs the 500 or so of the CH car. A 996 GT race car is simpler since it had a regular H-patter Gearbox (the RSRs are a different matter). 996 race cars are 75K, 997 race cars are circa 180K, new they are 250-300 depending on spec, dampers etc. Cost to run a 997 Grand Am car is about the same as a challenge car with the exception of brake expense.
Off the top of my head, I would rate the 996 and 997 GT3 about like you would call a 512TR versus a 512M...very similar but the 997 has a little power advantage. I think the 997 had 415-435? h.p. - and could do mid to high 11s...the 996 GT3 had 380 h.p. and was rated at a 12.4 in the quarter, 190 mph top speed. There were a few so-called CUP cars from the 993 days, but they did not have anywhere near this amount of power. In 993, you could probably compare a regular (non-S) Twin Turbo to the GT3; it could do an 11.6 and 193 top. All the 993 turbos are so incredibly expensive nowadays that my hopes to trade in the 1996 Targa for one may be years away - much more money than most any decent GT3. The love for the last aircooled cars is dying hard.
Thanks Dan! So any special sportier models for the 993 besides the turbo in America? Think I will go to Wiki. I thought 6 Speed was better than Renn for 996 and 997?
Lots of 993 race cars around the PCA club race world, you can get a whole lot of car for 40 or 50K. The official race car was the "cup" which as the "challenge car" of its day for Porsche, but lots are also converted from road cars. The PCA race world is super complex with lots of different classes depending on how modded the cars are. Essentially you can take a full house 993 race motor and drop it in a '74 shell and go and terrorise modern cars. I'm sure now's a good time to pick up something like that as I'm sure a few will be bailing from track toys. Street car wise I think you're right, Turbo, Turbo-S were US cars, the GT2 and RSs were not. The GT2 is probably the ultimate 993, but v few made and super $$$.
Thats right. The 996 GT3 has no electronic nannies (TC etc.). The 997 does have them - but you can turn them off. 996 is only 2004/2005 My's. 997 - 2007 and 2008. Production is over. I believe there's a new one coming out next year 2010 model? If you go to youtube, there's a great top gear episode where they compare a 996 GT3RS vs a CS. You need to go to Rennlist
GT2 was a street car as well as a full house race car. The street car homogated the race car IIRC. Only about 50 street cars, but most had roll cages, all had riveted arch extensions etc. A fairly mental street car if there ever was one! Image Unavailable, Please Login
No, although last race a 996 Cup Car was kicking my ass all over the track turning 1:51's to my 1:57's. If interested in a Porsche, it would be along the lines of the Maser GranSport. Something with back seats and something unique. Ruf is a new sponsor of ours, but none of the Ruf cars have back seats unless you just do a Ruf conversion and not Ruf VIN. Help me out here what kind of Porsche I should be looking at. BTW I wouldn't be buying one anytime soon, just trying to learn a little more. Requirements... Back seat or at least able to add seat back. I've heard this can be done with the GT2 and GT3's. No 996 or 997 Turbo/GT2. No 4WD. 993 Turbo OK as no other special models in America, Carrera 4S is 4WD, Carrera S doesn't seem that special although I do like it is 2WD and NA. 993 turbo is RWD isn't it? Out of the Ruf cars I like the RGT. Something special with emphasis on track performance, not HP or looks. Hmm, so looks like I would be narrowed down to a 993 Turbo, 996/997 GT3, or Ruf RGT. Any other suggestions?
993 Turbo is AWD. so its out i guess. You said no 996/997 GT2, but the equivalent in 993 form, the 993 GT wasnt imported in the US. They are worth +/-300k$ in Europe and are really much much more raw than the 996/997. Im not sure if you can add backseat but you want a RWD , trackbiased car, that would be the GT3.
993 Turbo would be my pick for sure - in the unmodified category. In the ultimate 993 category, I would see if Hans has access to a 1997 CTR-2. (520hp, 505lb-ft, 11.4 quarter at 133.7!!! mph, 217 top speed...no 4wd.) Take a deep breath before you ask the price of either one. And, no - 993 turbo was 4WD, both regular and S. Drive it first though, it is hard to tell it's 4wd unless pushing hard. BTW, you know I got my Testarossa from RUFautocenter - and the competing car which I drove first was a 1987 RUF Turbo Cab (a RUF VIN slant-nose car that had appeared on an old R&T cover and comparison) and with the special RUF 5-speed. I ended up with the Testarossa because I already had the 993 and it seemed like a better complement to the Targa and the ZR-1.
what I've heard, especially for track people. just me that thinks 993 looks better than 996/997? 993 looks like a Porsche.
The last of the REAL Porsches. I lied in that other thread about the 996 GT3. Plus the last to not have the classic five round instruments all scrunched up on top of each other.
Lots of stuff on Rennlist about adding rear seats back to a GT3. Essentially it IS possible, but depending on the build date it either does or does not have the seat belt mounting points, if missing they can be welded in. However IF you do it, you still have a car that's homologated as a 2 seater, and insured as such, so if you run it with kids in it, you create a potential liability. I looked into it and bought a Turbo and then eventually sold my GT3. The GT3's a great car, but I have 2 race cars, and a Scud and it was kind of odd man out. The Turbo I use a lot and its my winter car, just came back this week with its winter shoes on
Ive been told the AWD 993, 996 and now possibly 997 Turbos are not long term durable track cars because of front differential heating thus wear. 993 GT2 ? Forget it. European only and too valuable to track anyhow. The Irony. 997 GT 2 and 3 will take a hit here pretty soon when the new improved ones come out soon. They do have the (defeat-able) PASM but saving feature which some find comforting. 996 GT 3 has a huge following with track oriented people as they were made to be driven. Maintenance savings vs Ferrari would shock you. Probably the best choice per your parameters. But my pick, almost fanatically, is the 996 GT2. Performance to F50 speeds, or to Enzo with a few mods. Limited production with about 1000 WORLDWIDE. There was one at a Lambo Dallas track day two years back that was as fast or faster than the just released Murcielago 640LP that was being driven at the limit. These will be looked at in a few years just as we look at the 993TT S, RS and other Porsche landmarks today. Nice ones fetch approx 100k prolly down to 80k in a few years where I believe they will stabilize as the 993TT has done. Ferraris are cool but for a long term track car you can drive daily; GT2s or 3s in 996 or 997 forms cant be beat.
PS; some say the GT2 has too much power. Fortunately there is an adjustment controlled with the right foot.
While a 993, 996, or 997 may have a back seat, they are only for small children. You can not put an adult in them like you can in the GranSport. The aversion to 4 wheel drive on the track is generally held by people who never learned how to drive one properly. If you drive it like a rwd car it won't work, you must adapt to the equipment at hand. While I do not profess to know how to drive a 4wd in anger, a friend of mine is a very talented Cup driver (i.e. he has trained with Patrick Long, driven Daytona with factory shoes as his co-driver, won/podiumed in these races, etc.) once built an all-wheel drive 993 based race car as an experiment. Compared to a 2wd sibling, the 4wd was faster on the track, at least with him at the wheel. He explained that once he learned how to drive it, its capabilities were higher. Not first hand knowledge, but I trust his opinion. 4wd is outlawed in many racing series, otherwise I think you'd see it out there as the drive train of choice.
And the fact turbo's are heavy pigs have nothing to do with our disdain either. Or that they have disconnected, non-linear power delivery. We just all don't know how to drive them. That's it. Fastest and most fun/rewarding are not necessarily the same thing.
In my opinion, driving a difficult to handle car fast is far more rewarding than taking an easier route to a lower lap time. I take great pleasure hustling my old torsion bar 911 around MSR in the 1:21s. That's GT3 time to most folks.
1:27's in a first gen rx7 is flying! I've been on the track with them a few times and I was amazed at how slow the car is, at least from an acceleration standpoint. Taking the driver out of the equation, I'd have to say its the slowest thing I've ever seen out there. I can only imagine how many times you saw God on those laps. What do you think the GranSport is capable of? When we were out there together, when I was in the Boxster, you seemed to be holding back. (as would I in a street car) Any guess?
