I only knew the basics about the 850-- that it's a modified CRJ, in other words. Jeff is clearly the expert there. And on the subject of Westwinds, the II is not the most attractive, but the I/1124 is actually quite pretty, IMO, if you see it in flight. And, you can't beat a Westwind on bang for the buck. They really are an excellent airplane.
I didn't see any good 1124 air-to-air pictures on airliners.net, but I have a nice poster of one in my house with a head on view over the desert. I remember getting it when the Westwind salesman was cleaning out his office and throwing out all the Westwind stuff after the Astra came along.
Sweet...gotta love free stuff. I just got a Citation Mustang poster from my uncle. It has the President of TAM Airlines' autograph. Apparently he and my uncle are friends, didn't know that.
A Westwind is never going to be a sleek looking as a Gulfstream or a Falcon. On the otherhand they really are, like DonV said, a great value. With a Westwind II one gets coast-to-coast range. I remember eons ago an operator in Burbank getting authority to do charters to Hawaii with one. Some years back flew on a friends from Seattle to Atlanta. A relatively light jet with the light jet operating economies with lots of range. And a real enclosed aft lavatory! Jeff
Yeah, that Mustang sunshade stuff you put up around the quasi-potty does nothing for any of the senses except sight. Smell and hearing could be issues. Luckily it's not coast to coast.
I've flown Westwind Is and IIs coast to coast nonstop many times. Northwest to Florida is not a problem. We usually had to stop coming back, but not always. I never did Hawaii in the Westwind, although I have several friends who did. Back on VLJs, any thoughts on the Phenom 100? I guess, technically, it's not a VLJ, but a friend of mine was telling me he's heard great things.
I've heard good things as well. It's more pax and more $$$ than the mustang but it's hard to get firm numbers from embraer (unless I'm missing something). They're bearing down on certification though, so it must work fine. I have heard that they could have an issue with being underpowered. Not sure if that's fixed or not. I would say all in all it will be a fine jet. I think embraer is learning how to make things smaller which is an entire hurdle in and of itself. Cessna has been making smaller jets for a while now. Both good companies.
http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D94E9AT83.htm NM Eclipse employees unpaid for 2 weeks' work By HEATHER CLARK ALBUQUERQUE, N.M. Eclipse Aviation employees anxiously watched their bank accounts, hoping to see their last two weeks' pay, and carried boxes of personal belongings to their cars during work hours Thursday after they were told the company could not meet payroll. Ray Eveland, a quality assurance inspector at the final-assembly facility for the twin-engine Eclipse 500 light jet, said the company's president of manufacturing, Peg Billson, called employees to a meeting at 6 a.m. on pay day. She told them the company encountered a last-minute problem getting financing from Europe to pay employees for their last two weeks of work. The announcement left many employees feeling frustrated and angry that they were told of the problems so late, but others were hopeful the company would find a way to pay them. "They knew that they were in this financial bind," Eveland said. "I just cannot believe they just found out the day before. If that's the case, no one should be doing business with them." It also left the company's 1,400 employees in limbo, Eveland said, because unless layoffs are announced, they cannot apply for unemployment benefits. Eclipse has not spoken about its payroll troubles. An Eclipse spokeswoman didn't return several telephone messages seeking comment and the company ignored requests to meet with reporters in a parking lot. Charles Wollmann, a spokesman with the State Investment Council, which has a $19 million equity stake in the Albuquerque company, said: "It's still an internal company issue, but from what I understand the company was not able to make payroll." A spokeswoman for Mayor Martin Chavez had no immediate comment. Employees at the Albuquerque manufacturing facility, where the six-seat aircraft are assembled, were handed a toll-free phone number to call later to see if they would be paid. As of midday Thursday, there was no information available on the line, Eveland said. But some employees, who declined to give their names but wore Eclipse security badges, remained hopeful the company will get back on its feet. A female employee who came out of Eclipse headquarters insisted operations were continuing. "We are still working. We are positive," she said, shaking a finger at reporters. David Wayham, a retired pilot who was given a tour of the facility Thursday, said "the mood was down" at Eclipse headquarters. "I saw a few people just standing and conversing, probably just talking about their situation," he said. Eclipse Aviation has said it needs at least $200 million in new investment, according to industry analysts. Company spokeswoman Alana McCarraher said earlier this week the company was still seeking financing. Wollmann said with the failure of corporate giants on Wall Street and the troubled economy, "right now is one of the most challenging times in the financial markets that we've ever seen, and it's a very difficult time to be out raising capital." But the State Investment Council remains "cautiously optimistic" about Eclipse's future, he said. In late September, Eclipse said a Russian state bank, Vnesheconombank, agreed to pay $205 million to build a manufacturing plant in Russia to assemble the Eclipse 500. Eclipse has had a rocky year, even before the nation's economic troubles this fall. The company's founder and former chief executive, Vern Raburn, lost his job in July in a management shake-up. Eclipse also announced 650 layoffs last summer and its largest customer, air taxi operator DayJet Corp. of Boca Raton, Fla., announced it was going out of business.
From: Scott Dannenberg Sent: Friday, November 14, 2008 12:21PM To: _All Enterprise Subject: Payroll status update Fellow Eclipsers, We are extremely happy to report that funding has been obtained that will allow all past due payroll to be in your bank account no later than Tuesday, November 18, 2008. Money may be deposited in your account on Monday. Please continue to check your bank accounts. For those that get physical checks, please call the payroll department on Monday to arrange to get your check. We look forward to all of us returning to work on Monday, November 17. Employee benefits including health and dental remain intact and available. Management continues to work diligently on a longer term financial solution for our business. We sincerely apologize for the distress this has caused you. Thank you for your continued support and loyalty. Executive Management Team
Rumor has it that once Eclipse has EASA certification, they'll shut down in ABQ and start working on building them in Russia. And EASA certification is supposedly only a week or two away...
Times are tough for the entire industry. I'm an airplane broker, and I can tell you first hand, that the markets are going to get worse before they get better. I'm getting calls weekly from clients of mine who need to "fire sale" their airplanes, and will take a loss just to get out of them. It's a bad situation, but it does create some really good opportunities for buyers, so if you're in the market for a brand new airplane, look good and hard. I have at least three clients that have brand new airplanes at the factory, that they are about to take delivery of, and they will take less than what they are paying for them. It's nuts! I feel bad for the employees at Eclipse, I would be very surprised if they make through this downturn. For you guys that made it to NBAA this year, and have been in the years prior, it was evident by the turn out that people are just standing in the wings waiting to see what happens. If any of you have questions about a particular airplane or market, fire away, I'd be glad to help. -Don
BJ, Is your deal coming together? Has Cessna started to sweeten their offering price based upon the current market conditions? Jeff
If I went new or "newer" I would be looking at Mooney Ovation, Cirrus SR22, or Cessna 350/400. How much have those come off their MSRP? Still, even at $500k I would be better off with a 5 year old. There's nothing wrong with an Ovation 2GX w/G1000 and all for $300k.
Agreed Rob, but the Mooney is like flying a MGB. What is the best single engine plane on the market that can fly 4 adults with luggage comfortably with a/c in the 200 kia , for less than $500k? I am thinking the SR 22.
It is coming together...had meeting with the marketing firm (out of sheer luck, the same firm cessna uses) and then meeting with bean counters yesterday. Still, financing isn't going to happen easily. Working it from every angle I know. Angel investors are holding on tight to what they have...without financing, no point in going over price with cessna yet? Although I did notice that they've been very helpful and calling to check on me. Not having ever purchased a plane personally I wasn't sure if this was standard or related to market conditions. I'm sure one of my partners could answer that question though. How's Prugna driving? BJ
BJ, Barely driven Pugna. The major took longer than normal since they first had to diagnose through a hot start problem. Car was finished the day after we returned from the NBAA. Drove it a couple of times locally. Then a business trip. Then the fuse block died; had to wait for Birdman's replacement. Got it back home. Weather starts heading south on us. Trip to Thailand (here now). Miriam tells me the weather has gotten worse. I will be home for 1 week then head back to Thailand. Home for Christmas and New Years then likely back to Thailand for part of January. Maybe after all that there will be some decent enough weather to actually drive it somewhere for a day before spring. I can be an optomist! Jeff
My favorite comparing side by side is actually the Cessna 400. Here are pics from the summer at Parade of Pistons, not even close how much sexier it is than the others and faster too! With Cessna behind it that's a huge +++ as Cirrus is small company and Mooney is about as stable as periodic Chapter 11's, reorgs, and current layoffs. I do like the Mooney best out of the old school planes and I fit perfectly in it with 3-4 inches head room, it is how I drive too... leaned back pimped out. I'll update this post with higher quality pics and maybe break these posts into non-VLJ thread. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
Rob, Inventory is building up across the board, but I know that the new Cessna 400's are still plastered all over the place at $620K. You can definitely find really good deals on new 400's out there. I know of a 50 hour 2008 Cessna 400 that can probably be had for less than $500K. I will admit though, I'm a sucker for Mooney's. You can't beat their value vs. performance. The Cessna 400 is great as well, but I feel cramped in that thing and I really am not a fan of the side stick, just can't get used to it. The G1000 coupled with the GFC 700 is amazing though.
Just saw it on www.aeronews.net Eclipse has filed Chapter 11, no surprise here, most didn't figure it would last till the end of the year. When you have contracts for airplanes for less than it costs you to make them it doesn't make a very good business model...
I would hope that even in this time of tight credit someone will want an entity that has achieved what most others can only dream of - Type Certificate and production authority. Jeff
I wouldn't bet on it. In fact, I'd put dinner on the fact that the last Eclipse has already been built. The problem is that the airplane can't be sold for enough money to cover the cost to build it. At $1MM or even $1.5MM, it's a better Baron. Once you start going above $2MM, it starts to compete with aircraft which are far superior. Yet it can't be built profitably for under $2MM (probably under $2.5MM). Eclipse's entire strategy was built on having a mass market for these aircraft, primarily in the air taxi business. That hasn't panned out, and the evidence so far is that it won't pan out. That leaves them with the owner pilot market, which just isn't big enough for them to get the huge volumes they need to bring the price down. Someone will pick it up because there is money to be made supporting and retrofitting the existing 267 aircraft. But not building new ones. Anyway, if you read the bankruptcy documents, what's really going on is that Roel Pieper, the current CEO, is trying to buy it himself and cut out the existing creditors and debt. Maybe he'll pull it off, but if he does expect another year or so of soap opera and then the whole thing repeated.
