Racing Schools: Skip Barber or Jim Russell?

Before this thread descends into "trail braking vs braking in a straight line" hell , the pros and cons of both techniques are important for people to know and if you're serious about doing well, you must be conversant with both approaches. To learn, especially in older cars, I do tell people to get their braking done in a straight line. I do consider trail-braking an advanced technique, but SBRS is convinced (and has the data to support) teaching this as a primary skill to newbies is the proper way to go.

Technically, trail braking (or brake-turning, as Skip Barber now refers to that technique) is most likely to be used to help turn the car in slower corners over longer braking distances. It is a useful tool, especially in door-car racing where the cars are less responsive and by moving effectively the distribution of weight on each corner of the car properly, this technique can really help turn the car. Most professional drivers do this whether they know it or not. The process of brake-turning is not simply turning the steering wheel while the brakes are still applied, it instead is the juxtaposition of the intensity and timed release of the brakes and how that input is timed with the change in direction caused by the initial steering input.

The reason why Roos is so intent on straight-line braking is to break (or better yet not learn) the bad habit of going into most corners without some throttle application. We all agree that a car is most stable under slight acceleration so the key here, especially in faster corners, is to tell the car what to do by applying power and driving through the corner instead of coasting. Bertil was a little bit of a "madman," and Dennis has tinges of that, too and the worst word in their lexicon is C-O-A-S-T-I-N-G. That's his answer to prevent doing that!

Different tools for different needs, but most of the folks who are relatively advanced or professional do have their brake lights on past turn-in on nearly every slower corner.

I watched Bertil Roos drive a 2-liter Chevron at the old Road Atlanta. He was nearly flat under the bridge (after being flat through the Dip) and WAS flat all the way through T1 to the braking zone for T3, this in a thirty-year old, 170 mph car. When he did brake (?!?!?), the car was as straight as he could make it... Awesome stuff. Talk about commitment! He and Brian Redman, driving nearly identical cars, put on a great show that weekend.

It's sort of like Scotch and cigars, you pay your money and you take your choice!

 

Well said!

 

I am not arguing against straight line braking, all I am saying is if you are taking an advanced racing class trail braking should be an aspect of the class.

 

Please don't spread misconceptions about racing techniques--this is NOT the primary reason for trail braking. You're just going to confuse the novices.

 

now I dont mean to confuse the novices, there are other times you trail brake... however this is something you need to know how to do before your first race because you will find yourself braking in a corner because of traffic.

 

That's usually due to the "oh $h!t" factor, a reaction rather than a "planned event"!

 

has anyone done Jim Russel recently? Interested in doing it. Have done Skip 3 day and 2 day advanced schools and looking for another challenge

 

I like that. I like that a lot! Great quip!

 

That's because you've probably done it, too!

 

Apparently not well enough though, because the car didn't always do as it was told!

Of course, my instructions have ALWAYS been correct, just sometimes the car didn't listen

 

GB I just got a email from skippy re: discounts, go here https://www.skipbarber.com/eSales/GCForm.aspx

 

seems like i am getting an email a day from skippy on some sort of promotion.......

 

Hi All,

This has been awesome reading - though all I can do is compare to races at night on Forza 2 on the Xbox360. I appreciate the comments about not confusing the newer to racing people, but there's probably a few of us reading this 'racing' cars that don't cost money to repair - you just hit the restart button.

I mainly do races on Xbox Live at Laguna, and while I'm not going to pretend there's much cross over between that and real-racing in terms of experience and skill, on Live you do have races with 7 other people fighting for a corner, usually all at once, so learning how to try put the car on a different line is really part of the race.

I find I bluntly have a set car (as best as I can) for doing laps out there by myself, and a setup for trying to run as many lines around corners, especially corners 1-5. It makes the car about 2-3 seconds a lap slower, but in terms of racing - can get me through the field a bit faster - until at the front you really miss those 2-3 seconds you put into better braking distances and more aero grip.

I would love to hear more from you guys that have actually done it how to put a car around Laguna faster.

 

Some additional thoughts having done a bunch of these, some to get seat time at tracks I didn't know for running FC.

FWIW my first race school was a formula ford school at Castle Coombe in the rain...

Skippy @ Daytona. Great 3-day basic school, in the winter at a great track, you get to drive the whole track inc banking on the 3rd day. Excellent instruction, fun and a good way to drive on the banking which is difficult to achieve there without racing. Old style tube chassis with 4 speed. Cars are fun for learning since they have road tires and you can race those very cars.

Russell @ Infineon in the old cars - the old russell cars really were clapped out, but still an excellent set of instructors.
Russell @ Infineon in the new cars - massively better equipment, although the sequentials are more physical than I'd like (blisters on the ball of my had after 3 days). Real G-force (circa 2.8Gs), real downforce, real "no way I can go flat round this turn"... "oh my I actually can". I felt like there was a little more seat time with Russell than Skippy. You get to do a "real" race on russell on Skippy you don't. A real start, passing, but obviously a little calmer than an actual race.

Skippy MX5 school at Laguna Seca - a bunch of us rented the whole school to ourselves with instructors, really fun, but we probably pushed the boundaries a bit far with rubbing and a number of the guys having off track excursions. I'd expect us to be given less leeway next time. However they were supremely flexible, fun to hang out with and did keep a lid on it as best they could

Of these, if you want to learn "being on a track controlling a car, so I'm better prepped for driving on the road" - I'd go MX5 Skippy.
If you want to learn the basics of single seater, a responsive car, soft hands, thinking about active trackdays with a mind for racing - I'd go Skippy Race school.
If you want to learn a downforce type car, then the Russell School is your only real option.
Both Skippy and Russell offer what you need to get a license. IMO there is no substitute for going racing hanging out with racers and actually racing to learn racing.

FDE at Tremblant. An upscale experience, lovely hotel, lovely track, driving late model F-cars including the Scud on the track. Not a race school for the time being they have basic and advanced which equate to the 2 basic schools for italy, they are trying to get F-Spa to allow them to offer the 2 higher schools, the last of which is intended as a race prep school with challenge cars. Excellent instructor to student ratio, all lead follow so very safe, they do let you go "fast", but not as fast as the car will go. If you own an F-car and don't really have any true high performance driving experience, this is a great thing to do. Its also the only race school thing I've done that you can bring your wife to and there is stuff to do. Great restaurants nearby, a spa a pool. One random recommendation if you are up there, there is a thing called acro-branche http://www.acrobranche.com/hiver/eng/index.html which is a climbing through the trees ziplines etc, is a great workout and is great fun. They have an adult version and one for kids also.

 

In 1993 & 1994, I did back-to-back seasons in SCCA Club Racing running in both the NorCal and Southern Pacific Divisions. The idea was to get as much racing experience on a variety of tracks (Buttonwillow and Thunderhill had not been built yet) before trying to compete at the Runoffs in Mid Ohio. 4 years later, I moved back to bikes. Throughout this time, Laguna was always on my calendar 3-4 times a year.

Here's what worked well for me at Laguna to post a decent lap time in SSGT:

My lap really starts at T3, the first right hand corner. Sacrifice a little entry speed going into T3 in exchange for a better drive off the corner. This allows you to carry maximum rolling speed through T4 and into the braking zone of T5. Do not overbrake going into T5. It has plenty of camber so get on the gas as quickly as possible. T6 works well with left foot braking (depending on your gearing) as you enter the corner. It settles the nose and gives you front bite. Since your foot is already on the gas, you can apply throttle faster to get up the hill.

Corkscrew: the most over-rated corner in the universe. After you race a Laguna a few times (key word "Race"), the Corkscrew is just another corner with a great passing opportunity at the entrance.

T9 going down the hill is now greatly improved ever since they got rid of the bridge. This is a key corner to carrying speed down the hill. Put on your big boy pants as you exit the Corkscrew and carry as much speed down the hill and through T9 as possible.

Sacrifice a little entry speed on T11 to get a good drive off the corner. Carry that all the way up the front straight, under the bridge (T1) and down into T2. I've tried both double apex and late apex on T2. High HP cars can 2x apex and still get a great drive off the corner. If you late apex, just expect a bunch of people to pass you on the inside.



Then take all this and try it on a bike!